Hi, I am currently a junior taking BS ME and AB ECO-H. I'm thinking of transferring since it's really hard to find a good job nowadays. Also, my 3.3 GPA is really low and I don't think I would get hired by the nice companies since my extracurriculars are just average. Anyway, here are my options..

1. apply to transfer to UCLA or Berkeley. I would have to repeat my junior year. then work then MBA.

2. just finish ateneo degrees then...

a. apply for masters in the US or UK immediately after graduation. maybe an MS in finance and then a CFA. also look for possible scholarships. then work for 2 years then get an MBA then work again then maybe culinary school.

or

b. immediately try to get a job in the states then go for the MBA after a couple of years.

I would like to choose the plan that would take into account my budget, time to finish, etc. Right now I really can't decide where I want to go. I'm even considering a joint JD/MBA if it would help in my career.

Please advice. Thanks !

Hello! You say you're a junior and you're already worried companies won't hire you because you have a GPA of 3.3. Shucks, how I wish I had your GPA. Grades aren't the only criteria companies look for. If I were you just concentrate completing your degree at the Ateneo, work atleast two years, then take up masteral studies at either the US or UK.

Good luck!

Gabe is right. A 3.3 GPA for an ME-ECOH major in not bad at all. If you keep it that way or improve it after you graduate, then you should be able to get a decent corporate job after graduating from college. If your planning to go for an MBA in the future, just make sure that you get the right kind of work experience that will make your resume very impressive when you apply to b-school. Work experience counts as much, if not more than grades.

Brother with a GPA like yours I wouldn't worry about the "good companies". GabeP and ReyesAA are right: stay the course, keep up the good work, get a job THEN think about your MBA options after. You graduate with at least that kind of GPA and I'm sure the worst you'll do is get into one of the better local banks, i.e. BPI, RCBC, or one of the financial services firms like All-Asia Capital. I wouldn't worry about starting salary either, you'll be just fine making maybe P18 - 25T a month your first year, depending on your employer. The important thing is to gain some experience first. As you move up you'll find out soon enough what you're cut out to do. You've got a couple of semesters to go so just keep at it.

if you're looking for critical mass here, add me to the list of people who think you're doing just fine. you are absolutely, positively doing much better than i did when was a junior ME student.

besides, i don't see how moving to the US will change things. even here in the US, jobs are hard to come by. just do your best, you should be alright.

Voltaire, sorry for the very late response. I hope you are still checking this board. I don't agree with all the advice you got from all the other posts. You are right - 3.3 GPA sucks if you can do better. Furthermore, a junior thinking ahead like you has potential for bigger things. Here's an advice from someone who was once in your shoes then 20 years later is very successful in the US. (1) If you can transfer to a good school in the US now, do it NOW! This is an opportunity I did not have. (2) If you can't get here as soon as you can. (3) Always shoot for the stars - get into the best school you can get in given all constraints. If you are in the US and qualify for student loans you will not have any problems financing your education. Most ivy league schools come with guarranteed 100% financing if you can get in. (4) Before you do any of these, I suggest you dig deep and ask yourself what it is that you really want. How do you define happiness - lasting happiness? What is your mission in life? (5) Burn your bridges, it will make failure not an option. This is too long now. Good Luck.

Voltaire, ask yourself..do you want to be a big fish in a small lake or a small fish in a big lake?

i would prefer to be a small fish in a big lake because that would mean i still have lots of potential to be a big fish. before, i saw it this way. it's like there are two buildings. one is a 100 story building while the other is just 5 stories. the person who stays in the 50th floor of the 100 story building is still much higher than the one who lives in the penthouse of the 5 story building.

i plan to transfer, but i don't want to apply anymore to schools that have rejected me before as a freshman like harvard or penn. i guess i should be more realistic with my choices. right now i'm also looking for possible internships in the US for april-june 2003.

if ever i don't get to transfer, will it be advisable to go to graduate school (not MBA) for a 1 year course like financial engineering in berkeley? it might help me get into a good business school. i'm also hoping that companies like mckinsey or goldman sachs might accept though i think it's a long shot.

Big fish, small fish, big lake, small lake and the 3.3 GPA that "sucks". You say you'd rather be the small fish in the big lake since you'll still have room to grow. You'd also rather be on the middle floor of a towering skyscraper than on the penthouse of a small building. Well then, seems you have everything all figured out after all. Just one thing, what the heck is it with getting an MBA, and even insisting on getting it abroad? I thought you said it'd be tough for you financing this thing? Student loans? Yeah, just check out all the horror stories about student loans. Listen mate, if all you're thinking about is your future, looks like you're doing alright at present. What exactly do you have in mind by way of a career anyway? On a more practical and not so metaphysical note, what exactly is it with a US or UK MBA that you think will help you realize your future goals or career? As much as I love seeing young guys like you with a gung-ho go-getter attitude and a keen concern for your future, there IS such as thing as wanting something TOO MUCH and TOO BADLY, especially when you are not really clear as to what exactly your wants are in aid of. I think you seriously need a lot of time to think everything through, mate. If you don't you will not only make an expensive mistake, you'll make one that may just scar you for life. Pag-isipan mong mabuting mabuting mabuti kung ano talagang gusto mong mangyari, at kung pwede, what exactly is motivating you in the directions you are considering. Plunking money into a move abroad to pursue further studies is no joke, mate.

Joe.., whoa. Easy on the kid. He's a junior. You are absolutely right about everything you said. But it is also our primary duty to achieve the most that one can be, help as many as you can along the way.

Voltaire, the major decisions in life are sometimes made taking a leap of faith. No guts, no glory. I came to the US without a green card, without relatives, with $350 in my pocket. With your head start you can achieve even more than I (check my post - advise to Miss D somewhere on this board). One day, many years ago, I decided to take a JD part time, at night, while on a job that takes 100% travel across the world, and without any clue how I was going to pay for it. The impossible takes only a little longer to those of us willing to pay the price. Go for it kid. Send me an email to: bbarrameda@deloitte.com if you need help applying or need refernce. I will show you how I got into NY University Law School with nothing more than guts and a will to succeed.

BE BOLD AND GREAT POWERS WILL COME TO YOUR AID (Dale Carnegie)

Voltaire, I forgot to add: the key to accomplishing a seemingly impossible task is to take it one step at a time. If each step gives you an option to step forward, keep taking it. You will find that most of our fears are exactly that - fears. Of course, be prepared for dissappointments and failures. We actually learn more from them than successes.

hi voltaire. i work in a financial services firm in new york. there is a short term advantage with going to college in an american university. but the door is not shut to ateneo grads. look around you here in atenista.net and you will find many members who finished college in ateneo who later worked in global companies after completing their mbas abroad. look around "the street" and in consulting firms and you will see ateneans working with harvard grads in their own terms. almost all of them worked in the philippines before coming to business school. the reason they can do this is because business schools encourage diversity. they look more into the quality of your work and how you will enhance the diverse atmosphere rather than which country or what company you worked for. the truth is that once you have your graduate degree you will be at the same level with people who took their undergrads in ivy league schools. why is this so? simply because ateneans can perform at par with the best of the world. they have demonstrated this ability time and again both in and out of graduate school and if they can do it despite finishing undergrad in ateneo then you can do it too.

my point is that try to build with what you have rather than reinvent the wheel. if you were coming in as a college freshman then by all means give the u.s. a shot but if you're a junior then transferring would be needlessly disruptive given that you can take your ms/mba later. if your plan is to work for mckinsey or goldman then understand that it is just as hard to enter mckinsey or any of the top 5 management consulting firms in the u.s. as it is for an ateneo college grad to enter mckinsey or even a p&g in manila. the same is true for goldman and other financial services firms. and even if you do manage to get in your tenure will be for a max of 3 years only after which you will be asked by the firm to leave and get your mba. at that point you will be in the same boat as mba applicants from all over the world. i am not saying your plan to transfer is not good but do consider these things first before making a big decision like that. as a tip: you said you were considering taking a masters in financial engineering or an mba. take both if you can.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: broadway ]

I personally know quite a few guys who've made great careers in the financial world without a foreign MBA, some even without an MBA period. These guys are in charge of millions of US Dollars worth of investments, and deal with international investors and businessmen on even terms. They did it by doing their jobs to the best of their abilities, by working hard, by delivering on time, by getting things right the first time around, and doing all of this consistently. Point is, these are values and qualities that no MBA will teach you. An MBA ain't some kind of magic key, mate. Heck I even personally know a couple of GM's, VP's in banks, holding companies, investment houses and the like, and highly successful entrepeneurs and stock market players who can't stand MBAs because, in their common words, "they study everything to death". Sure it's always good to get further education and learn new skills, conquer the whole damn world and make the country proud if you can. But like I always ask guys, especially the younger ones, when they ask me about MBA and other Grad School prospects, what is it you think the MBA will give you? Specifically now; what do you stand to gain if you have an MBA, and what do you stand to lose without one career-wise? Is the gain worth the investment in an MBA? Is the loss so unrecoverable without an MBA? These are practical considerations you have to think real hard about, mate, especially if you're looking to spend your own money or take out a loan by yourself to finance your studies. Eh ikaw, balak mo pang mag-abroad, kaya nga sabi ko hindi biro ang gusto mong mangyari. Kaya dapat talaga kapag tinanong mo na sa sarili mo kung bakit gusto mo itong gawin, dapat wala kang duda sa sarili mo at wala kang pag-aalanganin sa kung ano man ang isasagot mo. When you have the littlest doubt about what you are about to do, think about it all over again. Mahirap magsisi sa bandang-huli, mate.

i heard somewhere (i really dont remember where) that what makes an MBA valuable is not so much what you learn, but more of the people you will get to know (one's classmates), that will form one's initial network of business contacts. . .

so i'm thinking if you get an MBA abroad, then it would make sense that part of one's plans should be to work abroad too?

i personally wonder what a degree from the outside would mean in in real terms of career advancement, once one returns to the Philippines (and I'm thinking beyond the "wow, how impressive" effect)

it really depends on what your degree and prior work experience are. take my MBA class for example, not a few had liberal arts backgrounds. they struggled a bit at first but i'm certain they learned the most from the courses. pero tama ka, may benefit din na malawak ang alumni network ng isang mba school.

The trouble w/ the Philippines is that it doesn't have a mature corporate infrastructure needed to cultivate MBA talent. Fresh MBA grads would prefer to start in either consulting, financial services, or even general management to hone their skills as they go up the ladder but not too many Filipino companies offer such career opportunities. Thus many Filipino MBAs end up working abroad for the medium term before coming back and taking leadership roles (ex. Manny Pangilinan - Bankers Trust, Darwin Yu - Merrill Lynch, Bobby de Ocampo - World Bank, Dennis Mendiola - McKinsey, Simon Paterno - JP Morgan).

Added to that, the Philippine's spiraling economic condition has decimated whatever opportunities there are in the local investment banking industry. Many have built successful careers abroad and decided not to come back.

Then again, there's the salary difference, but that's another story.

Well, I have to admit that my desire to get an MBA has been influenced more by what I've seen in media than what i really know about consulting or i-banking. However, I think i really do want to get into the business world. Ever since i was in ICA, I've always had a plan about where I wanted to go. I even got into some US schools for college though I just decided to go to Ateneo.

My plan to work in the US stems from a desire to be in the thick of things. I like that the things I read or see in magazines can be applied directly to my life.

Yeah, about the MBA, I really want to get contacts to help me in the business world. With regards to the Philippine situation, I feel like I have no choice but to go in order to have a shot at a really good life. I mean, if I work here, the starting salary is just around $400 i think. Even when one factors in the cost of living, I don't think I would be able to buy a house and a few cars anytime soon.

Somebody said somewhere that think long and hard what it is you want to do with your life and why. If you really want to be in the finance world, then its true that there are more opportunities presented in the US and the UK where capital markets are fully developed. By your account, you said that you're swayed by what you've read about MBAs and what you know about i-banking. I hope you've also read some of the negative press to give you a balanced view of the lifestyle you want! (search Jack Grubman when in doubt). Don't get me wrong -- am not at all discouraging you -- if you feel this is what you want to do, and you really want to work for a bulge bracket firm, then by all means, go for it. An MBA will help....is it the only way in? absolutely not. But it helps - yes, because of the contacts, yes because of the name recognition, but only in as much as it gets your foot in the door. The rest is clearly up to you. Remember, there are thousands of well-qualified MBAs that graduate every year, a good school may get you an interview, the rest is up to you. For a bulge-bracket firm, expect a minimum of c10 interviews, up to anywhere over 50 (for Goldman - don't ask me why!). And graduating in Manila and gaining initial work experience there won't limit your chances of getting in a good b-school -- check all around you for Ateneans that have done this. Is it worth the financial risk? I'm tempted to say yes - but please be aware that if you borrow up to your eyeballs and by some misfortune graduate during a recession, then life can be very ugly for a while. If you're able to secure a job, (and I can only speak for the finance world), your joining bonus and other guarantees on year end bonuses and such like should clear most of your debt. So it's not like payback is a very long time. But as i said, quite a bit of this is beyond your control, esp. when the global economies are falling to pieces. Also, in as much as the pay disparity abroad and the Phils can be quite staggering (and as such tempting), please don't ignore the huge disparity in living costs as well. And then there's the 'soft' element -- that anywhere else is not really home (but that's just me). Lastly, you're still on your junior year, so relax and enjoy being in college, this is the prime of your life!

Tintin96 is right w/ the interviews. It's also the same way for their analyst program (entry-level for undergrads). The reason banks and consultancies do this is because their business is very sensitive to the people they employ. One careless, greedy, or incompetent banker/consultant can screw up their whole business and cost their clients billions of dollars. Take the case of Grubman - although an equity researcher and not a banker - a guy who recommend "Buy" on stocks that he knew were worthless so he could score plus points on his boss, or the McKinsey consultants who told HP that merging with Compaq will earn them $6 per share because they assumed that 100% projections will be met. That's why, as broadway and tintin96 have put it, it is just as difficult to get hired by those kinds of firms in the US as everywhere else.

Since you're back in Manila and are still a junior, why not do some informational interviews w/ bankers there? Tell them that you're interested in a banking career and ask them what steps you can take once you graduate from college - espescially if you were to finish and start initial work in the Philippines. That's one of the tried and tested ways to get first-hand info on the profession. Ask ma'am Grace of the JGSOM-ME office if she can refer you such people. I think she may know some from local i-banks like Pacific Northstar.

By the way, here's a tribute to one successful young Atenean banker:

Wow, kilala ko yung nasa piktyur ah!

I go to school here in the US with someone from ICA. You might know her. She is a sophomore. Her name is Ria Lim. Anyway, maybe you can ask her for advice. But honestly, you shouldn't base your educational decisions now on the premise that you may have better chances of getting a job. My friend has a 3.9 GPA, did a summer internship for Goldman Sachs in NYC, did a business program for Tuck Business School at Dartmouth and has worked for the Council of Foreign Relations. She still didn't get a job into Goldman after graduation. The economy is really tight now and its crazy because 5 years ago, graduates were being given jobs on a silver platter. Bottom line: The economy will go up and down but you are more important than the companies you want to get into. So work on your educational fulfillment first.