Whatever...


Our whole island nation is rich in natural resource and has been since time immemorial. What makes you think another "find" will make a difference this time?

Oil and fuels certainly did not do much to improve Arab society.


Like the way garments were the purported hope of Philippine industry back in the 70's?

What makes you think it will be any different this time?


Such as? What exactly are they doing that hasn't been done in the past?


How exactly will globalisation result in an improvement in our chances of becoming a prosperous nation?


What track record?


What's an "Education revolution"?


We've had world-class OCWs and expats since time immemorial. The only thing different today is that there are more of them. So what?


What exactly do you mean by "for the better"?


How so? In what way are the citizenry "maturing" politically?


How exactly do they "show and over-all trend towards greater development"?

If you cannot explain exactly and objectively the above, then what is the basis for your optimism?


Why do you think it is a bit much?

Can you cite any instance of a convincing success in the last 50 years?


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Such as?


I repeat my question (reworded to fit your above statement):

What do Filipinos "have" and are "good at doing" that you propose we "build" on?


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Who do you think are we and capable of? And how would education facilitate our getting to know these qualities?


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[quote]Originally posted by benign0:
[quote]If you cannot explain exactly and objectively the above, then what is the basis for your optimism?

[quote]Originally posted by tennis_schlager:
How about this simple challenge to, benign0, that our country has a continuous track record of failure over the last 50 years? We've had failure yes, but a continuos track of it seems a bit much.[/quote]
Why do you think it is a bit much?

Can you cite any instance of a convincing success in the last 50 years?


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Some of the developements above I can explain EXACTLY and OBJECTIVELY why I think they're good for us. Like globalization. Just forgive me for not entering the complex dicussion of why this may be or maybe not good for us, at this point in time.

I'm especially not motivated to do this, since when a similar favor is asked of you, to explain why you think our country is a total failure for the last 50 years, you don't make much effort to explain yourself either. You just come up with more questions, about things that weren't supposed to be answered fully anyway.

Some of the other bits I mentioned, I'll admit, are a little fuzzier for me -- like how this education revolution is going to change anything, and how we are becoming more mature politically. When I say fuzzy I mean that I cannot explain why I'm optimistic about these, to the standards which you mention -- which is how EXACTLY and OBJECTIVELY they point towards the success of our society. I can't give you an exact analysis, and I expect if I try anyway it'll fail (your standards of success being that the Arab world hasn't benefitted from having oil reserves)

This I think is our fundamental difference. I am optimistic and hopeful even if I cannot see with 100% scientific clarity the country's future. If I see people passionate about their programs, if I see people with the genuine concern and determination to improve the country, that is enough already for my optimism.

You, on the other hand, have a different standard of optimism. We are all entitled to our own standards. But my feeling is that in your past posts you seem to have a level of cynicism which is unhealthy, simply because if there is doubt of the success of anything you seem to see no hope. Part and parcel of having hope is realizing that one can be also totally wrong, yet still hoping anyway.

And since we are in this forum for some constructive discussion, why don't you, for a change, do some explaining yourself and your opinions. If anybody here has a bigger burden or onus of explanation it would be you, since at first observation, your proposition is the tall task.

all people here choose to explain is that there are certain things being done that may mean the betterment of our society.

you, on the other hand, propose, if i'm not mistaken, that this country has been a total failure for the past 50 yrs. Doubtless, your reasons for proving this would make for more interesting discussion. Oh, and you don't necessarily have to do so in a manner so exact and objective.

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: tennis_schlager ]

If you've been following this thread intelligently, you'll find that the answer to "such as?" is what we've been talking about all this time. That being said, our discussion was meant to be illustrative rather than exhaustive. But then again I think you know that.



This is nothing but spin. Nice try. Let me post your original question:



How exactly have you repeated (reworded/rephrased) your question? But for the sake of it, you will find that your last question has already been addressed if you are astute enough to follow the posts.

[ May 05, 2003: Message edited by: reyesaa ]

Your original question was: "What about going back to basics and focusing on our key strengths?" (my italics), to which I responded with "Such as?".

Yes, the discussion prior to my butting in was "illustrative rather than exhaustive".

But then you came up with the concept of "key strengths" in your response to my original post. That kind of put you in gear for a more exhaustive accounting of such strengths since you've elevated the level of detail a bit to a higher, strategic, and more conceptual level. The use of the phrase "key strengths" implies this elevation of the level of detail of our discussion -- that our "strengths" could be summarised into such key items.



Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I meant it as a rewording of my original question within that post you responded to which was the question "Such as?". Thus:

What do Filipinos "have" and are "good at doing" that you propose we "build" on?

is a rewording of the question "Such as?".

I agree that they've been addressed in discussions prior to my arrival. But I'm trying to help you out here. If we are able to summarise these "strengths" and stuff that we supposedly "have" into, say, three to five points, then that will take us a long way in our understanding of our next steps, don't you think?

What you did was like telling a person (or, say, a potential investor), that you've answered their questions by throwing him/her a printout of an email thread for him/her to sift through for the answer. Now wouldn't you think that that isn't very scholarly or professional behaviour?


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That's right.


Of course. Shared qualities are part and parcel of every peoples' culture.


It does not necessarily. But having to refer to it in the face of unignorable commonsensical evidence is what I refer to.


In case you missed it, I posted the following a while back:
There are many of course that have "undergone reform".

My question is simple:

Where are the results?



But what was the ultimate source of these "facts"? Wasn't plain and simple observation?

How different is that from the source of my views?


No. I think it is you who wonders. For me it is pretty straightforward.


In case you missed it, I posted the following a while back:

TRACK RECORD OF FAILURE SUMMARISED IN FOUR POINTS:

1. Low growth in per capita GNP compared to our (former) peers Thailand and Malaysia (refer here for GNP per capita statistics). Current economic development rates have not kept apace with population growth.

2. Relatively slow improvement in Human Development relative to regional peers (refer here for statistics on the UNDP's Human Development Index). Quality of life and standard of living is not up to par with our regional peers and those of emerging countries like China and Vietnam are improving at a faster rate than ours.

3. Lagging labour productivity relative to regional peers (refer here for comparative statistics). We are still competing on labour price for foreign investment. This is unsustainable as the industrial infrastructure of Vietnam and China improves. We cannot compete on price forever and for that matter, competing on price is an indication of a weak value proposition.

4. Declining English proficiency (considering other countries are not only re-tooling to increase English proficiency, but also absorbing our unemployed teachers as well). Refer here for indicative statistics. English proficiency: much touted but under-utilised and currently being undermined by small-minded nationalism. Call centres are being attracted to our country because of English proficiency at the moment. But wait 'til China catches up on this quality...


I think that is enough data to demonstrate how the Philippines, in your words, "has been a total failure for the past 50 years".


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[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

1. On fuzzy thinking

Yes, i'll admit that i'm a fuzzy thinker, when it comes to certain issues, definitely not economic ones. That's simply because, in this jesuit-run institution that I happened to go to and of the little life experience I've had, I've learned that there are certain things that cannot be seen in an "objective" manner. When you talk about faith in the abilities of one's people and country, the concepts of hope and optimism, the realm of the fuzzy enters. I don't know if you'll understand this though, and maybe for your social-scientific purposes it isn't essentially relevant.

2. On Total Failure

that's what got me into this thread in the first place -- my taking issue of you calling the last fifty years of economic history in the Philippines, as one of total failure. It's true that we've not kept up with our neighbors (it's difficult if your neighbors happen to be the most dynamic in the planet).

But to make the conclusion that Total Failure is what happened is just being simplistic and misleading. I also want to add jingoistic, but I guess I don't know you well enough to make that judgment. Living standards improved during the late 70s, the period immediately after the EDSA I revolution til just before the '89 coup, and the Ramos years prior to the Asian crisis. Are these signs of total failure? This is not to say that we should satisfied with past performance, but this does not point towards total failure. To say so would just be UNobjective and a sweeping generalization.

Actually I wonder why you say that it was the last 50 years that were failure. What happened just prior to those 50 years? Are you one of those who thing that American colonialism were the Golden years of the Philippines? That would be interesting to know.

Am I being needlessly semantic about your use of Total Failure? That leads to the next point I'd like to make.

3. negativity, creating a value proposition, the way you engage in discussion

actually i bothered checking out your website and a few of the threads (specifically the ones in peyups) that you've participated in. a fair amount make sense, and there is rather good articulation (IMHO) of some of the problems of Philippine society.

In particular what made a lot of sense was the manifesto that spoke of nurturing a more responsible elite, and to move away from pseudo-intellectual thinking and towards a more rationalist one.

what put me off from your site and an in particular the threads that you've participated in, was the way that it was so negative in approach. i think you confuse this with being honest and realistic. Well, any value of honesty and realism you might be showing is watered down by the fact that scarcely anybody in this country is complacent and thinks the Philippines is in good shape.

It is your manner of questioning and occasional faulty logic, that has alienated those whom you discuss with. did you make any friends as you continued to participate in the threads? my guess is probably at most grudging respect, but seemingly not agreement. this situation should matter, since you do want to "help out", create a value proposition, and generally engage in meaninful discussion, right?

Unifying this small segment of internet-going elite is probably the last thing that happened, given they also probably have egos as big as yours. if anything they are all the more eager to oppose you (as they did), while the rest just don't bother with the energy-draining negativity you generally exude. actually the first impression i got was that you were one of those left-leaning marxists/nationalists. you guys are similar in demeanor.

maybe that the reason why in two years you haven't gotten a clear value proposition from other people. that's because you don't go through the difficult task of constructing it together with them. you choose to practically ram it down their throats.

This thread is a good example, the discussion was about certain developments that were occuring and instead of pursuing that course of discussion you bring about your own points and agenda (as you've doubtlessly did to several other threads in other boards)

***

i'm sure you'll take these frank comments in stride, but i also had to tell you these things. i do believe you're well intentioned (i give u that benefit of the doubt), and that in my book that counts for something already -- they're the ones more open-minded to listen to whatever constructive criticism others may have to offer.

Just comments for Benign0 (Apologies if the name is for possible wrong spelling):

When you compare our the statistics pertinent to our society with that of other nations (such as Singapore), I don't see the relevance of comparison. Are we supposed to be better than Singapore? Are we supposed to be at par with it? I assume that since you say that the past 50 years have been marked with total failure, then sometime 50 years ago something was being done right. What was that? Would you still have considered the country to be successful then?

What is the measure of success? It seems upon reading that whatever we achieve (those pointed by tennis_schlager above), it still isn't "successful".

It is difficult for values and standards to be assigned when we don't know what we are measuring these against. Furthering the question of what is successful, how relevant is the personal success of a nation? Must it always be compared to the successes of others?

Further, and I don't mean to be offensive, as you seem to want to rebuild and develop our society for the better (which I personally feel is a noble endeavor). But it looks like you want to rebuild it without having faith in your society, and that seems to be a very counterproductive way of doing so.

My impression of the way you discuss things is that it looks like you have gone through a long, difficult process to reach the conclusions you've discovered, and that since you went through such a long process, you feel that you're right.

Right or not, I feel I must say that even though I respect your intentions, I don't like the way you paint situations and call for action. Your methods sound impatient and frustrated and people in general do not like being rushed in cavalier manner. It is hard to follow a positive goal such as yours if revealed with such a cynical (what I expect you would call, "realistic"), voice. How can we be hopeful (a trait considered important, as it makes changes feel feasible, like something can be done, as we have something to hope FOR), when you've been saying we've been total failures for the past 50 years?

It should be noticed that it is the people who project something positively (and hopeful) that are the most convincing.

I'm sorry to say that while you've earned some respect for your intentions, you haven't for your methods. It is tiresome to listen (or read) something even seemingly jaded.

I understand.

But hope and optimism need to be nourished by something substantial at some point. I think Filipinos are practically at the edge of our capacity for hope and this is becoming increasingly evident not only in what the average man-on-the-street thinks but also in our migration trends, most alarming of all among those who are educated (as one other person pointed out in this thread, many Pinoy migrants in the US are college-educated professionals).

If we cannot give substance to the "hope" that we insist or expect every Filipino to express for their country, then this will (and I think already has) eventually become just another one of those hollow slogans that we force-fed our countrymen alongside things like "Philippines 2000" and "The Filipino can!". People get tired of that stuff after a while you know.


As long as there are people living off garbage dumps in our land, we cannot consider our present state as a success.

"Living standards improved during the late 70s, the period immediately after the EDSA I revolution til just before the '89 coup, and the Ramos years prior to the Asian crisis."

My answer to the above is For who?. Look around you. Do you really believe the majority of your countrymen can actually claim to live in a society that is just?

Whether we like it or not, our country is situated in a region of winners. We have to measure up instead of using that fact as an excuse.


What do you think happened?

Haven't you heard all that blustering about us being the Star of Asia back in 1946? What or who do you think accounted for that star quality back in the good-ol'-days? Wouldn't you say it was all downhill from there?


Thanks.


I'd like to dispute that last statement of yours. I think the whole problem with us is that we are in fact a complacent society. And maybe it is this complaceny that makes my manner perceived to be negative and impatient.

In fact, I might go out on a limb and propose that this complacency is why we perceived our old Spanish bosses and our present Chinese bosses to be such ass-kickers. Maybe the problem behind their perceived unreasonableness with work expectations is us and not them.


You're right on all counts.

(1) I made friends with those who had the innate objective and logical rigour to evaluate these views for their logical and objective merit. The innate qualities of these individuals also provided them with the tools to possess their own strong views (some of them even counter to mine) but with that big difference of being able to clearly articulate the bases for these views.

(2) I earned "grudging" respect from a few more who were open-minded enough to question their cherished beliefs in traditionalism.

(3) I earned scorn from those who simply bow to the gods of tradition, credentials, and textbooks.


I don't think so.

Those "left-leaning marxists/nationalists" you have in mind take more of an approach of indoctrination.

On the other hand, if you had taken a step back to notice my style, mine is more of an approach of asking "difficult" questions -- questions that require us to search the deep recesses of our psyche and the nature of what makes us a nation.

You will notice that after two days since I first butted into this thread, every single one of my simple questions have yet to be answered convincingly.


On the contrary, my site got as big as it is today because of the very detractors who sought to put a stop to my little hobby. It was "dissent" to my views that forced me to think things through more and substantiate my views more rigorously.

The more detractors I encounter, the stronger my resolve gets, and the deeper my substantiation becomes.


Check your facts.

All I did initially was to bring up a few simple questions.


Thanks for your insight. I think they were spot on.

I guess my expectation of people is very simple -- focus more on content than on form.

Maybe my form sucks. Fair enough. But then many have discussed with me for months commenting on my form 95% of the time and on the content of my message 5% of the time.

And Filipinos have a track record of focusing on form above all other qualities (such as functionality, common sense, substance, and of course, content).

See? That last sentence above (in italics) simply brings up a point I was making a while ago -- I learn more from detractors than from supporters.


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Why yes.

If they can do it, shouldn't we be able to do it? They looked to other countries as models for their development. Lee Kuan Yew even came to the Philippines to examine our method of governance at some point.

What standards do you prefer to set for ourselves -- the excellent ones of countries like Singapore, or the mediocre ones like the ones you propose we set for ourselves?

When we trumpet our huge head start over Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia, and Thailand back in the go-go days of independence, that's ok.

But when we fret about what we are today compared to these same countries, it's not ok.

What gives?


Yes.

Much of our physical infrastructure (roads, bridges, ports, schools), political infrastructure (our so-called "democracy"), social infrastructure (education system) were built prior to the 50's. That growth in our society's capital base flatted out since then up to the present.


When we set high standards for ourselves, it isn't.


Yes.

Look around you. Particularly if you are an Atenean, you will note that most Filipinos' hopes and dreams are made on standards set by Western society -- the way we dress, the stuff we hope to own in the future, the degrees we go for, the career paths we choose, the lifestyles we aspire to, the types of houses we want to live in, the types of conveyances we would want to arrive in.

We chose these standards of succes. They are things that only achievement of a level development seen only in Western societies (and a few exceptional East Asian societies) can provide.


Ok, say for a moment that you were out to convince me to have "faith" in our society. What would be your selling points?


On the contrary (and I also mentioned this to what's-his-name in the above post), most of the growth in the content of my site is accounted for by what I get out of discussing with people like yourselves.


That last point (in bold) illustrates my point. The proble is with us. We have no sense of urgency even in the face of a society that is clearly slipping into destruction.

How could you say that there is virtue in not liking to be "rushed in cavalier manner" when the poverty and misery of a huge proportion of our people are staring us in the face?

I also made this point to what's-his-face: Maybe that's the reason why we were treated the way we were by the Spanish, and now, by the Chinese. Because we are a bunch of foot-dragging buffaloes who don't know enough to hot foot out of a culling drive.


And I say, if you disagree with my assertion that we've been "total failures for the past 50 years", prove objectively that we aren't.

Just because an assertion ain't pretty does not necessarily mean it ain't true.


Like who? Cardinal Sin?


You've just demonstrated an even bigger tragedy -- growing tired of hearing the truth.


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i havent read the whole thread !!! pero...

kung ikukulong natin ang ating pagiisip sa kawalan ng pag-asa, mas walang mangyayari? :confused:

hopeless?? i dont think so. as long as there are some officials in the country who are doing their best and giving their eforts to make a change, there is still hope. in my opinion, i think that the president is full of hope for the country. and i appreciate her concerns about the sars scare. atleast she could prove that her regime is a lot different from the past administration!

To Benign0:

I don't think you got the point. Or at worst, refuse to. That's fine with me, as you're entitled to your own opinion.

I don't think you're putting the advice given to you, which is pretty ironic since you love giving advice or proposing something should be done about the country without listening to what's being said yourself. (The advice being, you are not being convincing at all, your good intentions are wasted in your negative methods, etc, etc, etc...)

Furthermore, you've taken to judging the posts. Your refer to a "whats-his-name/face" when he does have a handle (tennis_schlager), and you say I've demonstrated I've become tired to see the truth. That behavior alone pretty much proves this point: you're not interested in discussion. You just want your opinion to be the one given the highest consideration.

As for being tired to see the truth because I was tired of your negative methods, I just laughed at your inane logic. (Which, if you did read my post, was the reason why I found reading your posts tiresome, not because I was scared or just plain apathetic to the national situation.) The fact that I took the trouble to read your posts and check out your website and am aware of what's around me pretty much disproves that.

If there is someone here who refuses to see the truth here, it's you. You have yet to realize that your method of discussion is negative, and at some points, abrasive. Your resort to labels with purple prose is unappreciated. You sound more like a dramatist than a social scientist, and to be quite blunt, it also sounds like you're starved for attention.

I wouldn't be surprised if you responded with some defense of your character, a flame, or some justification as to why you use your methods.

Trust me when I say if you do the above using your current way of "discussing", it wouldn't change the fact that you'd be missing the point again completely.

I'm usually civil, but I honestly think the people posting have been rather generous with your behavior.

Take the hint and start posting as if you really care what people have to say without resorting to your usual cavalier method of force-feeding your ideas.

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Har^2 ]

And what point is that?


I must agree with that.


Who's giving advise?

I merely ask a couple of simple questions (which still remain unanswered).


All you have to do to counter negativism is to provide convincing examples of positive things. And my questions challenge people to come up with these "positive" things.

Is that so difficult to do?


Oh, so now it is me who is not interested in discussion.

Take one step back and examine your post to which I respond to here.

Isn't it just one big ad hominem argumentum? There is not one single paragraph here that directly addresses the points I bring up.

Furthermore it is you who make a judgment about my manner, whereas I make a judgment about one's views. See the difference?


You keep referring to flaws in my logic yet you cite no specific examples.

Furthermore, being "tired" of my "negative methods" won't diminish the validity of the points I make (i.e., I am entitled to believe they are valid until convincingly proved otherwise).


I'm sorry for your "trouble" in reading my posts as this effort seems to have been wasted. All you can come up with having read these posts and visited my website was one big ad hominem


Listen to yourself.

First you tell me that I "refuse to see the truth", then you substantiate that claim by commenting on my "method of discussion". Can you see the yawning disconnect in your train of thought there?


As a matter of fact, I am trying to attract attention.

I make no secret of my intention to promote my website and pick up ideas from discussions such as these to add to its content.


That's a fair assessment.

You do indeed attack my character rather than my message. Isn't that fallacious as well?


And changing my "current way of discussing" won't change the points I make here.


Probably because they're not as onion-skinned as some people here.

By the way, speaking of onion skins, check out this article. It expounds on Filipinos' general onion skinnedness which you in particular may find enlightening.


Ad hominem argumentum.

Look it up, dude.


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You are still proving my point, and no amount of Latin to say that I'm attacking your character/person is going to show anything other than prove what I stated earlier.

I should commend you: you are far from onion-skinned. Just the opposite---impossibly dense.

You ask "What point?" Here it is, for the last time, and hopefully clearer for you:

Even if your ideas for helping the Philippines is a good one, AND even if we have to know how bad the situation is in order to do something about it, YOU ARE NOT HELPING MATTERS WITH YOUR NEGATIVE CONDUCT. YOU ARE DRIVING AWAY THE PEOPLE WHO YOU WANT TO GALVANIZE INTO ACTION. Thus, GET A BETTER ATTITUDE.

You're disregarding what people say just to forward your own agenda. Further, you yourself refuse to discuss the issues provided to you, and demand answers from people who are not obliged to answer you questions. Things are left hanging by your means of analysis, and neatly set aside what's demanded of YOU.

That's a form of red herring.

Look it up, dude.

By the way, even if I do bring up anything "positive", under your standards (refer to earlier posts), it wouldn't count anyway, unless it was something so radical that our country's economic status suddenly matched that of our neighbors. Which, at this point, is something that couldn't be done instantaneously, yet it seems like you want it that way.

Discussing things with tends to be a waste of time since you're insufferable anyway. Malignant self-righteousness is tiresome, boring, and over all, not evocative.

Again, I laud your intentions, goals and aims for our country. But the methods you use in order to reach those intentions are another story altogether.

I shouldn't waste my time dealing with a reformist who refuses to reform himself.

What did you "prove earlier"?


You might also want to check out this article. It expounds on this particularly nasty trait of Filipinos of being so quick to label somebody as arrogant when that person is merely expressing a view with appropriate candor. I think you in particular will find it interesting.


Argumentum ad hominem.

But why don't I propose a deal with you. I'll get a better attitude if you focus on the points we are discussing here and stay on topic for a change. You seem to be a digressing a bit with your obssession about this "attitude" of mine.


Cite specific instances where I "disregard what people say".


Cite specific instances where I "refuse to discuss the issues" provided me.


What specifically is demanded of me?


Mate, based on your last three sentences above, let me summarise this dysfunction I am beginning to detect in your ability to discuss things objectively:

(1) You claim that I "disregard what people say", yet if you notice my style of posting, I always respond to peoples' posts point-by-point and quote every single piece of text in their posts I respond to.

(2) You cmaim that I "refuse to discuss the issues" provided me. Yet it is you who have focussed on my manner and character rather than on the pertinent points I bring up. Technically it is you who is off topic and out of line here.

(3) You cite these "things" that are left "hanging by [my] means of analysis". What exactly are these "things"? And what exactly is "demanded" of me? It is you who speaks in some kind of bizarrely vague language that sounds remotely like English.


Where exactly did I say that I wanted things "done instantaneously"?

If you will refer to my "Solutions Framework" here, you will note that there is nothing instantaneous about my proposed vision. In fact, I have not relented in my assertion that it is instant gratification that is the bane of the Filipino character.


And chronic onion-skinnedness resulting in a pathological obssession with the messengers character is not bringing you any further forward in the realm of understanding either.


Consider my methods as "barriers" to your understanding.


You're not such a convincing debater either, dude.

I'll adapt your style for one second and give you this little piece of advise:

Avoid ad hominems and appeals to emotion. They get you nowhere, specially with people like me.

And they only diminish your stature as a credible presentor of logical and objective arguments.

Maybe that's the trouble with our politics. There are too many drama queens in them.




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you know the thing about many filipinos? they have short legs. if they were long, their feet would be in their mouths.

You all will have to excuse Mr. benignut. He's been trying to get the online community to see things his way for the past 2 years in his thread but sadly people here are just too smart to bite. That's why he feels compelled to butt in and trash other more optimistic and intelligent threads. Just leave him to rant senselessly by himself.

The fact that these "optimistic" threads get "trashed" simply demonstrates that said optimism cannot be substantiated convincingly by the participants of said thread.

My question is quite simple:

Cite three things we are doing differently this time that one could use to objectively substantiate even a glimmer of hope that success is in the horizon for our tragic country.

Calling me names or attacking my character merely demonstrates that we are unable to face the reality that the above is indeed a tough question (though it remains a simple question).

I'd have expected a bit more from Ateneans than the standard stock found in Wild-Wild-PEx.


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Don't flatter yourself. Optimistic threads don't get trashed. You just scatter your garbage in them. Who are you to impose on a leisurely discussion? Smart people know how to keep a conversation open ended so other smart people can join in. No, sir. Ateneans are smart enough to see through your narrow mindedness. Come to think of it, so does everyone else.

i think a good way to restate kainizares' last post is 'NORMAL people know how to deal with problems, whether or not they're seriously affected.'



[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: mac_bolan00 ]

Actually I am quite flattered by all the attention I am getting.


You just said a while ago that they do.


Why do you think they are "garbage"?


This is a discussion forum last I heard.


My question is pretty open-ended:

Cite three things we are doing differently this time that one could use to objectively substantiate even a glimmer of hope that success is in the horizon for our tragic country.

Wouldn't you think so?

An open-ended question cannot be answered by a simple yes or no.


Why do you think I am narrow-minded? Is it because I ask difficult questions?

And don't you think attacking the messenger and calling him names without actually attempting to respond directly to points raised is a better example of narrow-mindedness (or even closed-mindedness)?

Take the advise of IBM: Think.


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[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

What can I say? The thing is, benignut's problem is not Philippine culture but the lack of progress his "honest evaluation" threads have been making. He even can't tell the difference between flack and admiration. Remember above normal and inordinately sane people like Hitler? When they get nowhere in their own backyards, they mess up other people's backyards.

HA!HA!HA!HA! .... HA!HA!HA!HA! .... MWUAHA!HA!HA!HA! ... YOW-HOW!HOW!HOW! ... HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: nom_de_plume ]

I admire your confidence Benigno. Bow ako sa iyo.

Give him a break. (please don't bash me for this.)
In my opinion he posted objective propositions and they were essentially substantiated. But the negativity in his comments does not mean that he is hopeless. (He might assert that he is.)
But i do feel it helps us see the Philippines in its naked form. Kumbaga, wag tayong magbulagbulagan.

Just to share an experience. A British friend of mine arrived last week and I arranged for him a tour in Intramuros. A Filipino at Fort Santiago threw a candy wrapper on the side walk and my friend asked me whether that was allowed. Then I started to fidget. I didn't know what to say or how to explain(defend?) it. Mahal ko ang Pilipinas. But I ended up explaining the simple bad habits of Filipinos. I live near the Tondo area (It's just across our house). When we arrived in the area (believe me, maraming mandarambong sa amin), i cautioned him to watch his wallet. Of course, he asked why. Mahal ko ang Pilipinas. But i ended up telling him that there were a lot of unscrupulous people around the area. When my Brit friend and his gf (my cousin) went shopping at a mall here in Manila, my cousin was offended by very loud whispers coming from the sales ladies, implying that she was a very very nice "prostitute of Ermita." (akala ng karamihan dito sa Manila kasi, kapag may kasamang foreigner ang filipina, prostitute na) My Brit friend found out about it and asked why they would say that. Again, I ended up explaining about the hidden sex trade, how it operated, why it existed.

Nasa maliliit na bagay. Mahirap magbulag-bulagan kung nakikita mo ito araw-araw.
It is actually better to acknowledge our boo-boos because they provoke us to ask the true sources of our problems, challenge us to the very core of our being and destroy all those sugar-coated lies about how good our country is.
A tough pill to take but just look around and try to explain to yourselves why the things i mentioned above happen.

Mahal ko ang Pilipinas. I do believe there is hope. Marami lang kailangang gawin. I've seen previous posts and I believe that the presence of such people doing their best to look for ways of improving life in the country keeps our hopes alive.

[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: Grotrian0203 ]

you call that 'loving the philippines', fidgetting in front of a foreigner in your own soil? if that was me, i'd say 'no' and then either tell the litterer off or point him to a guard.

Sure you will.

What are you going to do, sick on 'em your frat brods or commie comrades that you keep mentioning in your other similarly-toned posts?

Good to see your in your usual good form, old friend.


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i won't even have to go that far. i've had my fill of ******* foreigners asking things like traffic, smokey mountain, filipinas they like to call LBFMs and i will tell you, i'm not like most gutless pinoys who cough out excuses. i either tell them off or remind them of an even worse boobooh in their country.

yes, that's one problem we have here in the philippines. we have cowards like you and mr. anglophilia (what's his nick?) they can't think objectively when talking about the phils. with someone who knows even less than they do.

how many visiting pinoys in the US have the balls to argue with americans about the war in iraq, huh? has any pinoy in the US spoken out about the continued racism and descrimination there?

ok, there's your answer. it's a question of balls.

The only difference though is that the "good guys" were able to drive Hitler off their backyards with a convincing counterattack.

Which by the way is reflective of the way Pinoys counterattack -- hanggang personalan lang ang alam.

The insult is already in our backyard and the only way we know how to respond to it is with Tito Vic and Joey wit.

Maybe we need to increase the proportion of American Jesuits on "the Hill" to arrest the continuing decline of the quality of the wit of our "Men-for-Others".


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My my.... spoken like the true tough guy you fancy yourself to be.

So you are you therefore saying that we are better than the people from which we decided to model our system of government on and from whom our own jungle warriors learn how to fight in their own jungle?

And you are also saying that reminding Americans of their "booboohs" is ok and reminding ourselves about our "booboohs" is not ok?

Maybe that's the reason we are such a slow people -- because we are weighted down by our own balls.


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you always miss the point, mr. gutless. we're discussing my reaction from got___'s dumb post.

i've long retired myself from arguing about the philippines with you.

Nope. I believe I didn't miss the point.

I merely paraphrased your comments on what you called a "dumb" post, i.e. :

(1) You are saying that we are better than the people from which we decided to model our system of government on and from whom our own jungle warriors learn how to fight in their own jungle? As if there is no "racism" and "discrimination" in our own country?

(2) You are also saying that reminding Americans of their "booboohs" is ok and reminding ourselves about our "booboohs" is not ok?


Nobody forced you to argue with me in the first place.


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Pardon me mac, but i never called it 'loving the Philippines'. That's why I said 'but' as a mark of my own failure.

never lose hope people!

GAINS IN DECENTRALIZATION:
BEST PRACTICES IN LOCAL GOVERNANCE

A series of short articles on various accomplishments in the local government sector, summarized from Innovations Magazine (© Local Government Academy - DILG)

Introduction

I believe someone was asking this:

"Cite three things we are doing differently this time that one could use to objectively substantiate even a glimmer of hope that success is in the horizon for our tragic country."

How about ten?



Oh, and no questions until after the tenth article, please. It's hard to write while enduring the noise.

the idle discuss people, the average discuss events, great minds discuss ideas. (other versions of this saying may also do)

threads like this make me feel good. if there are people like everyone in this thread, is the Philippines really hopeless?

REINVENTING PUBLIC SERVICE: Bulacan Province

"The Reinventing of Public Service Program was designed to obtain a satisfactory level of productivity for every department in the provincial government, especially for every employee, through the maximum use of available financial, property, and human resources. Specifically, the Program aims to revise and restructure the operating ssytem of each department and to access and provide the needed manpower skills. The 2,054 provincial employees are major stakeholders of the Program but the people of Bulacan are the ultimate benecifiaries of the resulting efficient and effective bureaucracy."
- Innovations Magazine 2000

Overview:

The project was formulated and started in 1998, under the administration of current Bulacan Governor Josefina De la Cruz (BS ME '83, I'm uncertain about the date ). Its very first step was the creation of a Management Evaluation Group to review and assess the effectiveness of the changes that had been made to the Provincial Office prior to her assumption into office.

Once the MEG submitted its findings to the Sangguniang Panlalawigan and had those findings reviewed and approved by Gov. De la Cruz, the next step was to create the Local Placement Committee to evaluate the qualifications of the provincial employees given the identified competencies, and then prepared a personnel placement list to facilitate the reorganization of the staff. The key focus was to maximize the competencies of the personnel by reassigning them to positions that would best complement their skills. All evaluation instruments followed the requriements of the Civil Service Commission, with the exception of a few that needed to be revised to suit the specific needs and requirements of the province.

Program Accomplishments:

1. Strenghthening of the Provincial Disaster Coordinating Office (PDCO) by including in it the firefighting units and the provincial communications units, under direct supervision of the Office of the Governor. This improved coordination and resulted in a 24-hour manned office.

2. The Provincial Treasurer's office and the Provincial Assessor's office were merged into a single department. This allowed the resulting department to focus on local revenue generation, particularly from real property taxes. This innovation was a first since the enactment of the Local Government Code in 1991.

3. The Provincial Youth, Sports, and Employment Office (PYSEO) was given full department status. This allowed the resulting department to create a specific office for employment creation, namely the Public Employment Service Office. Programs in the other two concern areas of the department were continued. The change resulted in only one additional position.

4. The Management Information Systems Office was upgraded into a semi-department from being a division. This allowed the MISO to follow-up on the success of deevloping the Personnel Management Information System (PMIS), the Environmental Permit and Monitoring System (EPMS), and the Real Property Tax Information System (RPTIS). IT also allowed the MISO to develop the computerization of the Financial Management Information System (FMIS) and the Property Management System (PMS), the installation of an intranet in the provincial capitol, and the maintenance and constant improvement and updating of the Bulacan Province Website.

(note: I have seen the MISO facilities personally. They had the hardware to integrate the EPMS, the RPTIS, and the PMS onto a 3D-mapped database of the entire province. Very impressive. Also, they are in the process of expanding their provincial capitol intranet to include all cities and municipalities up to the barangay level. That stage of their information systems should be completed and running within the latter half of the decade.)

5. Creation of the Business Assistance and Promotions Division (BAPD) under the Office of the Governor. This division is currently responsible for facilitating, processing, and assisting in business inquiries and providing business information to investors. It works very closely with the Department of Trade and Industry.

6. The Provincial Environment and Natural Resource Office (PENRO) and the Provincial Cooperative and Enterprise Development Office (PCEDO) were downsized to streamline operations.

7. The Public Facilities and Management Division under the General Services Department wa created to take charge of the commercial buildings and other properties of the province that are under lease. Part of the responssibilities of this division is teh management of the Hiyas Convention Center. Privatization of the operations of the Center's dining hall resulted in an average monthly income of P33,000.00 in rentals. The Provincial government also generated P1.5M in savings from the Center's canteen; the money was previously allocated to the salaries of employees, who have since been reassigned to other provincial operations.