Highly interesting and thought provoking messages over here. I also think that the site should gain more exposure. I will probably forward the site to some of my friends.
The bottomline over here is that we are not moving forward(if we are, we do so at a very slowly pace) despite being considered as one of the promising developing nations after world war 2. Thai has already passed us and if we are being compared to Burma (Myanmar) then it goes to show how "wisely" we spent the last 50 yrs after the war. I hate to say this but I think the Philippines have squandered every opportunity it has, and she will continue to do so until our we get our act together.

Thanks for your interest and, yes, we need to disseminate this message to as wide an audience as possible. It's too late to change our generation but the next one may still have a chance.

Some people ask me why I seek to kill our culture and tradition. My answer is another question:

Do we really wish to impart on our children the tradition and a culture of a generation that dismally failed to build a strong and prosperous nation?

Get Real Philippines!!

for once i agree with you. kill this entire generation and keep those who flew from coming back (or from posting on the net).

add the current generation of americans to the list. they haven't improved much on their country's GNP and development from the 80s.

exterminate the whole of japan. they're having a recession the like of which has not been seen since the early 50s.

eradicate most western europeans. that's a sorry area as well compared to what they were between the 60s and 70s.

nuke the whole of africa and south america. those areas never amounted to anything.

You do your thing and I'll do my thing.

I think your thing - killing - is what commies do best, right? You are a communist, right?

Get Real Philippines!!

oooohhh, he called mac a communist! this thread just gets better and better.

My brother sent me this through email. It's rather long but you'll find it quite interesting to read.

~~~~

'The Philippines is a nation of starstruck ignoramuses'
by Don Pedero

Last July 23, I wrote about Nasty (short for Anastacio), a balikbayan from Los Angeles, who, while vacationing in Manila, had nothing to say but negative comments about the Philippines and the Filipinos. The article elicited a deluge of comments from our readers. Though some agreed with his curt observations, most were enraged at the repulsive way he acted and whined.

For me, he was the classic epitome of the "crow perched on a carabao," thinking and acting nauseatingly superior just because he has become an American citizen, inequitably comparing everything here to how they are in the first world. I was particularly irked by his repulsive "know it all" attitude and peeved no end by his irritating Waray-American twang.

Those who have not read that article may access philstar.com and click archives, then select July 23 and click Lifestyle. The article is entitled "Little Brown Americans." As a backgrounder, here is an excerpt:

The next day, I took them on a little city tour and accompanied them to do extra shopping at the duty-free shop. They were to leave two days later for their respective provinces (Randy is from Pampanga, Nasty, from Samar).

"God, ang dilem-dilem naman ditow (it is so dark here)!" screamed Nasty in his characteristic Taglish slang, "At ang inet-inet pa (and so warm)!

* * *

All throughout the day, Nasty complained about everything. He griped that all Filipinos he encountered were dense and inefficient (I hope that didn't include me!); that the traffic was horrendous and drivers "drove like they were late for their funerals"; that the pollution from the smoke-belching vehicles was irritating his dainty, surgically-pinched nose.

He was disgusted that water closets didn't work; horrified that there was no toilet paper in public toilets ("God, how do you people do it?" he bewailed); petrified by street children begging while soaking wet in the rain ("Where are the parents of these kids?" he nagged).

He moaned about the proliferation of slums, people crossing the superhighways ("There should be underground or overhead walkways for pedestrians!" he demanded), the potholes on the streets, the disgusting garbage and filth all over the city, and the annoying floods! And all these he observed in just one day!

Weeks after the publication of the article, I took Nasty's silence to mean that of contempt and anger. I must admit that I didn't care because I was really turned off by his arrogance. The good news is, Nasty has finally decided to break his silence and give us his side, loaded with a big piece of his mind. The bad news is, he hits more sensitive chords and it stings.

* * *

Nasty's E-Mail

Dear Dero,

My Zen master says, "Never fight fire with fire." So, I sat in a lotus position, imbibed the ethereal qualities of cool mountain water and stoically resisted the temptation of answering back to defend myself in rebuttal of your article. I kept quiet while you and your readers had a charlatan holiday, dissecting and fanning sarcasm on my every comment about your country and your people.

I am not mad at you for writing that piece. I was never upset at any point, even after your readers from all over the world e-mailed in their two-cents' worth. In fact, I found it rather amusing and carnival-like.

I even felt happy that people still came to the defense of your Philippines!

If you noticed, I now refer to the Philippines and Filipinos as your country and your people. Every time I went back there for vacation, my Filipino-ness always took the better of me (blame those damn green mangoes smothered with bagoong!) and made me forget that I am, in all reality, what you aptly called a "Little Brown American." I have come to terms with my own identity- I am, after all, an American citizen carrying an American passport!

What precipitated my quick decision to sever my ties with your country (aside from your ***** of an article) were the Abu Sayyaf abductions (que barbaridad!), the Payatas-like downslide of the peso (eat your hearts out, I earn sweet American dollars!), the "devoid of conscience" graft and corruption in your government (this has gone on for the longest time-how shameful!), and lately, the stupid "Juetengate" and juicy but enraging "Boracay" mansion gossips. With all these, who would be proud to be a Filipino? Besides, to tell you frankly, those Erap jokes are no longer funny-they are passe and leave a bad taste in the mouth and heart.

No Apology If I sounded brash and insensitive with the way I threw my comments, well, I cannot do any-thing about that because that is the way I am, and I offer no apology. Here, in America, you have to tell it like it is or you'll never be taken seriously. I have learned to drop my "Pinoy sugarcoating" because out here, you get nothing done if you are meek and sweet and pa-api. Hindi puwede mag-Anita Linda dito!

When I commented about your pollution, street children mendicants, slums, potholes, toilets that don't work, garbage, floods, and most of all, the Pinoys' chronic lack of discipline, I was merely putting into words what I saw. I can't blame your being blind about your country's situation.

My Zen master says, "One cannot easily see the dirt in one's eye." I am sure though that you are aware of those sordid details, but have grown accustomed to them (like most Manile?s have). All the complaints I aired may have hurt your pride but what I wanted you to realize is this: The things I pointed out are all symptoms of a failing, falling nation!

Suffering A National Karma?

Could yours be a country cursed with a huge national karmic debt? It could be payback time, you know. Look back into your history, look deep inside your hearts-what could you have done as a nation to deserve this fiasco you are in today?

What you are faced with didn't just happen overnight-it developed and grew into a monster in the course of time. Deeply imbedded in the psyche of the Filipino is the amalgamation of the characters and events that have impacted your lives - Dona Victorina, Dona Concepcion, poor Sisa as well the other hilarious and tragic characters of Dr. Jose Rizal... Stonehill...the notorious gangsters immortalized by your Filipino movies like Asiong Salonga (hmmm!), et al...the killers in your (I thought they'd never end!) massacre movies...those cheap, appalling titles of your movies...those staged "religious miracles" that your naive masses believed...family men with pushy queridas (mistresses)...your crooked politicians, undependable police officers and greedy customs collectors...your bribe-hungry court judges...Imeldific, gloriously smiling and crying at the same time, bejeweled. (How very Fellini!)

What you are is the sum total of your history, your heritage and culture,your education, the crap that your press sensationalizes, the bad icons that your movies glorify, the artificial values your advertising extols, the bad examples your leaders and role models project. What you feed your country's mind is what it becomes. You have become the ugly monster that you've created. You are now crying all the tears your sickeningly sentimental movies wailed out for years and years! Your Biggest Fault If there is one thing that comes to mind, I think your biggest fault would be your individual greed. "Ako muna!" seems to be the national mantra.

The trouble is, very few people think for the common good in a deplorable "to each his own kurakot" festival. Coupled by your crab mentality of pushing down others, this can be fatal. You think barangay, not national. Hello, everybody else around the world is thinking global! Europe is unshackling her national boundaries while you are building fences around your nipa huts.

Do yourselves a favor and look at your nation as a ship. All of you are in it and it is sinking! Realize your oneness-what hurts your brother hurts you, too. Think about the future of your children and the succeeding generations, and do something about it quick before your poor little banca plunges forever into the irretrievable depths of despair.

Star-Struck Nation

You are a nation of star-struck ignoramuses. You are easily awed by your movie stars who are usually nothing but uneducated, aquiline-nosed and light-skinned ******** picked up from some gutter somewhere. I have seen what these artistas illusionadas can get away with. They just flash their capped-tooth smiles and policemen let them get away with traffic violations; they bat their false eyelashes and customs officers impose no duty on their suspicious balikbayan boxes.

Worst of all, with the Filipino movie industry taking a nosedive, hordes of actors and show personalities went into politics. It is, as they say, the next best "racket"-there is more money to be made in the politicking business than in show business! (And what is this I hear that in the coming elections, more are jumping into the arena? Mag-hara-kiri na kayo!) How can you expect these comedians and actors, who only know how to take directions from their directors, to direct your nation? For them,politics will just be an "act". No big surprise here, for they are mere actors with no original scripts to speak, no original visions to share. So what can you expect but a government that is a comedy of errors. Serves you and your star- struck nation right!

My Zen master says, "Give unto Caesar what is due to Caesar, but keep Charlie Chaplin on the silver screen to make us laugh." To survive, you must teach your citizenry to say no to three things - no to drugs, no to stealing and graft and corruption, and no to artistas in politics. I hope you've learned your lesson by now. (Yours is the only country where Mexican soap stars are received like royalty in the presidential palace. How shoddy! God forbid-Fernando Carrillo might end up being your next president. At least he has great abs and doesn't wobble like a penguin when he walks!)

For those artistas who honestly believe that they can make a positive difference in the Filipino masses' life, they must first study law, business and public administration, and immerse themselves in the life and passion of Mother Teresa. Politics is not an art for dilettante artistas to dabble in. It is called "Political Science," hello?!

Educate Your Masses

Educate the masses - especially your electorate. What you need is an intelligent vote aside from, of course, intelligent candidates. The University of San Carlos in Cebu City, founded in 1595, and the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, established in 1611, are the oldest universities in Asia, and are even older than Harvard. But the standard of Pinoy education has deteriorated so much that the Philippines ranks among the poorest in the educational hierarchy of Asia.

Education, education, education-that's what you need in this age of information, information, information.

If all your social, religious and political sectors don't sit down now and decide to take the Right Way, the Philippines and your children's children will be grand losers in the worldwide rush to the future. Education is one sure way to salvation. Teach what is right, good, beautiful and beneficial.

Downplay all negativity if you cannot eliminate it altogether.

The Ideal President

I've got news for you. (As if you didn't already know.) No matter whom you put up there as your leader or president, it will be the same banana. Even a holy man can turn into another J. E. (Judas Escariot) for a few pieces of silver. Kumpares, alalays, relatives and cronies will encrust like flies and maggots on his cordon sanitaire. And it will be the same despicable "Sa amin na 'to!" hullabaloo all over again.

Take an advice from Aling Epang: "Pumili ng matanda, mayaman, mabait, at madaling mamatay." Get a president who is old - so that he is full of wisdom, rich - so he won't need to steal more money, goodhearted - so he will render heartfelt service to his people, and is in the sunset of his life - so that he will think of nothing but gaining good points to present when he meets his Creator. And may I add: At iisa lang ang pamilya! This is, of course, asking for the moon. Just pray fervently for an intelligent leader with a pure heart who genuinely loves the common tao!

Magpakatotoo Kayo! Wake up and look at the real you. Enough with looking at your reflection in glorious, self-embellishing mirrors. The tropical sun can play tricks, you know. Do not wait for darkness to fall before you take that much-needed long, hard look at your real situation. Magpakatotoo kayo, ano? This isn't a wake-up call-it is the final alarm!

Save the ship while you still can. Don't wait till your people have no more dreams left to hang on to, no more hope to sustain their broken spirits. I came home, spent my penny-pinched savings so that even in the minutest way I could help your bruised economy. Your politicians sit on their fat,farting butts and get balatos (kuno!) in the millions. Receivers are as guilty as the givers. Now, tell me, who is really nasty?

I Have Made My Decision; So Should You.

My Zen master says, "Life is all about decisions, not choices." I have made a decision which I know will be very hard for me to keep- You will never hear from me again (not in this vein) and I will not even think of visiting or buwisiting your Manila ever. This is my way of letting you know that I have given up on you. Bahala na kayo! Only you can help yourselves because at the stage you are in, nobody would want to help you. My Zen master says, "You have to fall to learn to rise again." How much lower do you want to go?

Anyway, regarding the Philippines as a tourist destination, you have a lot of cleaning up and face-lifting to do before foreigners would dare go to your islands again. The Abu Sayyaf episode has done your tourism industry more damage than you could ever imagine, and it will take a long time before the world forgets. (By the way, your tourism projects are lusterless and have no global impact. If you want real business, spruce up your infrastructure and do aggressive marketing on the World Wide Web!)

Of course, I would gladly reverse my decision if someone offered me exclusive lordship over lotto, bingo, jueteng, pintakasi and the jai alai.Think about it: this will be to your advantage because I never give tong or blood commission to anyone! (If only your president used the millions he received from those gambling lords to build homes for the masses, you wouldn't have any more squatters. Huling hirit: defrost those Marcos billions, pay off some debt, place the rest in high-yield investments, feed your hungry, and spread bounty and joy to every Filipino! Are you stupid or what? - That's your money sucked from the blood of your people!)

I have made my decision, now make yours. I would hate for the day to come when I'd have to say, "I told you so!" Good luck! (You need it.)

An ex-Filipino,

J. Anastasio "Nasty"

P. S. My Zen master says, "Vox populi is not always the voice of God."

P. P. S. Come over to L.A and I'll show you a great time!

P. P. P. S. Our friend Randy says hello! We will be going to Vancouver to feast our eyes on the colors of autumn. Wish you could join us.

P. P. P. P. S. The new Miss America, Angela Perez Baraquio, is of Filipino ancestry. Dero, her parents hail from Pangasinan just like you! But keep in mind that she is an American (in case some wise fools over there claim her to be Filipino like they always do whenever someone becomes successful).

Wait for the girl to say it- don't put words in her mouth!

P. P. P. P. P. S. Mabuhay kayo (SANA)!

P. P. P. P. P. P. S. Sa totoo lang, MAGDUSA KAYONG LAHAT! (Don't you just love my Waray-Kano accent?) He-he-he!

- Same

* * *

My Short Reply

Dear Nasty,

Thanks for your e-mail. I swear you sort of stole the words from right under my tongue. Now, I am utterly speechless.

Send my regards to Randy. Wishing you the best!

Thanks for sharing this classic piece of literature Mr. Thornclaw but I already have it in my collection here.

Glad to know that this article is still making the rounds.

Get Real Philippines!!

It's MS. Thornclaw, thankyouverymuch.

Ooops.

It's funny but I was just through a similar gender confusion row in another forum .

Apologies for the confusion here as well, Miss Thornclaw (although your handle sounds a bit masculine).

Get Real Philippines!!

an old one...

at least folks in the philippines don't sing stupid songs like:

"everybody sing this song:
dudah, dudah!
everybody sing this song
all the dudah-day!

all the dudah-day!
all the dudah-day!

everybody sing this song all the dudah-day!

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: mac_bolan00 ]

But then more harm is done casting stupid votes and producing mediocre products than singing stupid songs, wouldn't you agree?

Get Real Philippines!!

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

Here's a lighter side and EVIDENCE of Filipino culture:

Two Filipino inventors reaped six medals at the Seoul International Fair, billed as an intellectual battleground for 385 inventions by 287 inventors from 30 countries.

Dr. Virgilio Malang won the gold medal for his invention Psidium Guajava Effervescing Gynecological Insert, a silver medal for his Patient-Side Turning Hospital Bed, and a bronze medal each for Light Refracting Earpick, External Vaginal Cleanser and a Brooms way of Hanging.

Rolando dela Cruz got his gold medal for his Cashew Nuts Extract in the removal of warts, moles and other skin growths.

The achievements would not go unCHECKed as each received cash rewards from Pres GMA's Social Fund.

Oopsss...Overanalysis leads to paralysis. By doing it right and by doing it best in our respective turf have its reward as these crystallize into something right and best for our beloved P.I.

The achievements of a minority few does not absolve us of our collective failure as a people.

You may be aware of the stereotype of a Chinese university student as being good in science and math, and the stereotype of an Indian as a computer whiz.

What are Filipinos stereotyped as?

We cite the achievements of Pinoy scientists, yet do we honestly believe that the virtues of these few and undoubtedly brilliant Filipino individuals are attributable to Filipinos collectively, even, at the very least, as a stereotype?

Just as jokes are half-meant, stereotypes are half-true.

Get Real Philippines!!

anong klaseng ka-engengan naman ngayon yan? the mere fact that we have acheivers proves we're not total failures.

you're starting to slip, you know why? you keep re-defining your philippine failure with every rejoinder that comes your way. now THAT is obvious.

On the contrary I think I am being perfectly consistent.

We are still failures collectively in every measure of national progress.

Just as there are a few brilliant Bangladeshis, Sudanese, Nicaraguans, and Afghans, yes, there are a few brilliant Filipinos.

You yourself said it: "we're not total failures" (my italics). Which implies that we are -- but not totally.

Get Real Philippines!!

Is there a distinct FILIPINO-style democracy sensei benigno.


Quote:
"The United States and the Philipppines are treaty allies bound by shared history,shared values, and a shared commitment to a peaceful and prosperous 21st century."
(White House Statement)

Aren't we experiencing that "distinct FILIPINO-style" democracy today?

Get Real Philippines!!

Hello guys.

I got this article from Inquirer. The gist is that the ADB is dismayed over the poor performance of its projects in Phil compared to the performance of other projects of ASEAN nations.


ADB-funded Philippine gov't
projects slowest in ASEAN
Posted: 0:28 AM (Manila Time) | Mar. 11, 2003
By Doris C. Dumlao
Inquirer News Service

$5.9B in loans

THE ASIAN Development Bank is dismayed over the poor performance of its projects in the Philippines over the last two decades, as only 31 percent were successful compared with the 70-percent success rate in the 11-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

The ADB lent the Philippines a total of 5.9 billion dollars for 86 projects in 1986-2001. Only 36 projects were completed.

Citing a report on Philippine programs, ADB officials said Monday that the bank's lending program had not made a major impact on economic growth or poverty reduction due to the low success rate of most of its projects.


"The Philippine performance comes out rather less well than its neighbors. So, what we need to do is to work diligently on all the many facets of the portfolio performance to try and get it up to that mark," ADB country director Thomas Crouch told reporters.

"The Philippines should aspire to be as good as or better than its neighbors and intrinsically, there is no reason why it should be able to do that," he said.

A project is "successful" when its expected purpose and goals have been achieved sustainably, the ADB said.

Of the 36 projects completed and post-evaluated in 1986-2001, roughly one-third were rated generally successful, said Vladimir Bohun, ADB director general for operations evaluation. Another one-third were considered partly successful, and the last third unsuccessful.

"This was a sharp deterioration against the pre-1986 period and an inferior performance vis-a-vis Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand that were exposed to similar external shocks during the review period," Bohun reported.

The worst performance was recorded in the 1980s, when 10 of the 12 unsuccessful projects were completed, although some improvement was noted staring the 1990s.

"In most of the recent years, there was a negative resource transfer. Project performance has been disappointing," Bohun said.

Crouch said it was not an issue of throwing more dollars at the Philippines "as one of the problems of the portfolio is that the repayments over the last few years have been exceeding the disbursement we have been making."

Crouch said a major reason for the problems was the poor capacity of executing agencies and line departments to absorb ADB assistance.

The reasons for the low success rate ranged from frequent internal and external shocks that the Philippine economy experienced to more project-specific constraints such as poor design and different types of implementation problems.

Aside from absorptive capacity constraints, the ADB cited other problems:

• Lack of time for actions that require legislation

• Complicated land acquisition and procurement policies and procedures

• Lack of counterpart funds that slows down the disbursement of ADB funds

• Inadequate project personnel in both number and capability

• Lack of institutional and financial capacity, especially of local government units, to undertake projects


Corruption

The ADB also said the projects were poorly implemented because of corruption.

These problems were further compounded by the changing composition of the ADB loan portfolio, which shifted to policy-based lending from project lending, according to the study.


The ADB report said internal and external economic shocks should also share some of the blame for the poor portfolio performance.

"Unlike its high-performing neighbors, the Philippines adopted for a long time an inward-looking development strategy that emphasized import substitution and capital-intensive industrialization, much to the neglect of its comparative advantage in labor-intensive industries, " a summary of the ADB's portfolio report said.

The Philippines only started opening up its economy in the 1990s, when most of the improvements in the portfolio performance started.

"In addition, it failed to nurture economic institutions that were crucial for economic success," the report said.

The bank also noted that the Philippines had suffered from a long string of adverse external shocks such as the global oil crises of 1973 and 1979, the world debt crisis of 1982, the Gulf War in 1991 and the Asian currency crisis of 1997.

"We are also not satisfied with our (ADB's) own performance. We are trying to take measures to improve the performance," Bohun said, noting that a Philippine country office had been established two years ago.

The country's success ratio also fared way below the 51-percent average for ADB's overall lending. While the Philippine portfolio accounts for about 10 percent of all post-evaluated projects for the period, it was responsible for 24 percent of all unsuccessful projects, mostly in the agriculture and natural resources sector.

"The ability of ADB to provide effective assistance in the future will depend on its capacity to deepen its relationships with the broader society beyond the government -- the nongovernmental organizations, other elements of civil society, women's groups and ethnic minorities," the ADB report said.

The Philippines is the ADB's biggest borrower among developing member countries for the private sector and the fifth largest for public sector programs

okay, i think i've seen enough.

everyone knows we're not doing well in all respects: politically, economically, culturally. fine. no argument.

tanong: aside from constant and endless prattling, complaining, b!tching, and the promotion of an uber-intellectual site (read: all words, no action), what the hell else have you done to get the Philippines back on track?

dami kasing sinasabi, wala namang ginagawa.

Well said, raggster.

Sagot ng iba: Others can work hard at this, and I will benefit. So why lift a finger?

In the meantime, back to work for those of us who do give a damn.

oh don't mind me. i'm busy forming another (short-lived) organization. it's called "The Movement for the Free Ejaculation of Muslim Mindanao". Anyone interested?

What do you expect people to do?

Serve soup to bums in the streets or go to squatter areas and distribute t-shirts?

The ADB article already said enough. $5.9billion has been shoved down our throats already, and what came out of it?

Nada.

Let's change our self-righteous penchant of calling people to heroic and extraordinary deeds and instead find value in the collective effect of each individual doing their ordinary jobs properly.

We've already had our fair share of heroes who I personally think sacrificed in vain. By "in vain" I mean that the size of their sacrifice is not commensurate with the willingness of the people they sacrificed for to help themselves.

I lifted this from a Pinoyexchange.com thread (refer here) where I posted a response to a character who also often mouths this same self-righteous "what have you done" ad hominem:




Visit Get Real Philippines!! for more views like this.

A N N O U N C E M E N T ! !

Get a load of the latest article on Get Real!

The much-awaited addition to our "Solutions" framework:

Trust. We need to create an environment that could nourish this basic virtue. Unfortunately fighting corruption the traditional way contributes to destroying such an environment.

Happy reading!

that's rich. i tell you to get off your electronic butt and get your hands dirty, and then i get more brain fart.

look, all this intelectualizing is all well and good, but really, if you're in the thick of movements towards institutional reform, then why not invite people to join you there, rather than invite people to a "Kick The Country While It's Down" contest?

there is such a thing as being a bona fide member of society, in which those who actively participate in governance and national development are considered to be such, even if it's just as simple as paying proper taxes, or doing your job well in whatever your field. if you're a bona fide member of society, and you see that there's something wrong, then go ahead and complain, to the proper authority.

but if not, then do everyone a favor and join society first. pay right taxes. excel at your job. make the best of your studies (for students). then you can ***** about how crappy Filipino society is, all you want.

in the meantime, as victory_fils has said, back to work for those of us who give a damn.

This is a discussion forum last I heard. What else does one do here?

When in a discussion forum, one discusses.

When not in a discussion forum, one does other things.

And besides, what would you know about what I do when I am not logged on to this forum?

Or are you one of those self-righteous people I talk about who do nothing but send people off to "do something" when they are starting to make sense in a discussion forum (of all places)?


How sure are you about what I do and what I do not outside of this forum?


How would you know that I have not tried complaining to the "proper authority" when I am not typing on this forum?

And besides, when was the last time complaining to the "proper authorities" in the Philippines yielded any significant results?

The Philippine government can't even assure the Filipino a reliable supply of safe water. What makes you think it can address any complaints more complex than that?

We don't even know how to use $5.9 billion properly.


Yes sir Mr. Preacher, Mr. Guardian-of-exemplary-citizenship.


Tough luck for you.

Whether I am a good citizen or not (and you can speculate all you want about whether I am one or not), you cannot stop me from writing what I write here, in my Web site, and anywhere else on the Net.


Oooo. "Those of us who give a damn"

Absolutely ooooozzzzing with self-righteousness and self-importance!

Time and again I've observed:

When people are unable to refute simple truths about themselves, they go and attack the messenger of said truths.


Visit Get Real Philippines!! for more views like this.

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

attaboy, benignut! teach raggster the finer points of hair-splitting and quasi-syntopical discussion.

What's the matter?

Too embarassed to come back to this thread on Pinoyexchange.com after making a fool of yourself yet again?

You've so far left two discussions hanging -- here and in that other forum. Racking up quite a track record for yourself, aren't you frat boy?

You don't do justice to those henchmen you claim to command.


Visit Get Real Philippines!! for more views like this.

if you actually do something worthwhile, then it's only fair to everyone who wants to see change (and from the looks of the replies, mukhang marami nga) that you share it in your online forums. problema kasi, banat lang nang banat.

you seem to have this false impression that i'm out to glorify personal sacrifice, blah blah blah, but yet i just asked one simple question: what are you doing about the situation? and until now, you haven't answered it one bit. all you've done is go defensive, claim that i'm advocating great personal sacrifices out of individuals (i'm not), tell me that i don't know anything (which is funny, ebcause that's the whole reason why i wa asking) and then attack my personality. yeah, that really reflects greatly on your abilities to effect change.

hell, i never even denied that what you're saying is true. heck, for the most part, i actually agree with you. but the point is this: beyond the intellectualizing, beyond the rhetoric, what can be done on the practical level?

you're right. i can't stop you from b!tching like there's no tomorrow. but i can remind you that there are more effective ways of advocating change. like setting a good example.

you can downplay me all you want, call me cute little names and use all of your smart, pseudo-intellectual catch-phrases. you can even claim that i'm being self-righteous. maybe i am. does that matter in the greater scheme of things? ignore calls for practical action just because you think the person saying it sounds too "self-righteous?" who's attacking the messenger now?

you want to show these people how to "get real?" start doing it yourself.

What you see is what you get. As far as you know, this -- running a website that outlines our dysfunction and proposes a solution framework given the nature of the problem I attempt to highlight -- is what I do best. So that's what I am doing, doing what I do best (outside of my day-to-day personal commitments).

What I do beyond what you see here today is irrelevant to the discussion as I have only my leisure time to commit to the cause of duty to my ethnic background.


Why do I need to answer it when it is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

The topic of this thread is Pinoy cultural dysfunction and not benign0's personal life.


That's because I'm here to defend my thesis and not to defend what I do in my personal time.

If I had the intention of discussing "what I do", then I would have included it in my website and opened a thread to discuss me.


Very well. I shall accept and take your word for it that you do not "advocate great personal sacrifices out of individuals.

Apologies for presuming otherwise.


Doesn't maintaining a website such as mine constitute an effort to "effect change" (i.e. by creating the awareness of the issues -- the need for change).

People are not going to change unless they understand why they need to change, you know.

A drunkard won't sober up until he finally accepts that he is indeed a drunkard.


Thank you.


Here is what I propose for now (the concept is undergoing systemic development.


Please enlighten us.

How does one "set a good example"?

By not giving bribes, for example?
By being a "disciplined" driver?
By paying the "right" taxes?

Puh-lease. That kind of sloganeering has been going on for the last 50 years. Where are the results?

You can't expect a drunken bum to suddenly become a model citizen by showing him pictures of men in suits on their way to work.


It would help if you stick to discussing the issues rather than speculate about the person(s) behind benign0.


There you go.


Works both ways dude.

Does what I do beyond what you see here matter in the greater scheme of things?


What was your message anyway?

I can't claim to attack any messenger if no message has been presented yet.

I've already presented mine. Yet you choose to speculate on me. Therefore, it follows, it is you who is the messenger attacker around here.

Don't take thing personally dude. I'm simply following your logic.


You will just have to take my word for it that I do.

Meanwhile, my "getrealist" message remains as presented here. You either attack that message or continue speculating on what I do.

All up to you, dude. You set the tone of this discussion.


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[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

i'm sad. so very sad. because i haven't warned raggster enough.

Here's today's (3/13/03) article about RP in the New York Times. It was a long article and I included only the relevant lines.

How do you reconcile growing proverty with rapid obesity of the population?

"Clustering in Cities, Asians Are Becoming Obese"
By SETH MYDANS

03/13/2003
The New York Times
Page 3, Column 1
c. 2003 New York Times Company
MANILA, March 12 -- A wave of obesity is sweeping through Asia as its population shifts into vast new cities where the food is faster and fattier and the lifestyle more sedentary....
…
Unlike communicable diseases with their immediate symptoms, obesity has crept up almost unnoticed and Asian governments are unprepared to address it, said Dr. Gauden Galea, a Philippines-based expert with the World Health Organization. ''We are talking about numbers so huge that people can't see them, even,'' he said....

Overall statistics for the region have not been collated, he said. ''It's more like a jigsaw that emerges from many individual studies that all fit together.'' ...
Globally, more than one billion adults are overweight and at least 300 million of these are classified as obese. Asians are making up an increasing proportion of these, he said. ...
Dr. Galea cautioned against blaming the overeaters for their condition, which he said was as much the product of their environment as an infectious disease would be. ''When people move to cities they are automatically at greater risk,'' he said -- the poor as well as the more comfortably off. ....

It is not only the fast-food chains that have changed the Asian diet. Milk, ice cream, cookies, soft drinks and potato chips -- these once-alien foods are as common in many parts of Asia now as in the West. Meat and eggs are making inroads on rice and vegetables....

In the last two decades, Thais have doubled their annual intake of sugar to 63.9 pounds per person from 27.9 pounds, according to a study in 2001 by the Public Health Ministry.
''Sugar is everywhere in our lives, in food, desserts, soft drinks, snacks and even infant milk formula,'' said Dr. Supreeda Adulyanond of the Thai Health Promotion Foundation. ....

In the Philippines, Dr. Augusto D. Litonjua, who heads the Philippine Association for the Study of Overweight, a private group, said that in an informal survey of doctors, 25 percent of patients were overweight. ....

He blamed what he called ''malling,'' which he defined as spending the day in shopping malls and eating at fast-food restaurants.
Even as they eat, however, many of these people long to be slim. As in the West, the bloating of Asia has been accompanied by a slimming of the ideal of beauty....

Why?

Are you insinuating that Mr. raggster is in need of a babysitter?


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I read another article that cited the recession-proofness of fastfood chains like Jollibee.

Malling and going to Jollibee seem to be the last bastion of affordable liesure for Pinoy families nowadays. There isn't much you can do in Manila nowadays other than go to the mall (unless you are one of those luckies who can afford country/sports club memberships).

I've also met some moms who actually brag about their kids' being addicted to hamburgers -- as if a taste for burgers is a badge of honour. Bizarre, to say the least..


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[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

Benign0, .."last bastion of affordable leisure..? ..can you give examples of affordable leisures that Manilans had in the past that are no longer possible? Why do people always recall the past as being more glorious? Was it really more glorious? Or was it glorious because people remember only the good things of the past and are oblivious of the bad. Mr. Get Real, I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you give me hard statistics to prove your get real point? The ADB report provides concrete facts and critizes RP's failure rate to complete projects. But it fails to mention that during the period evaluated (1986-2000) major transitions have occured; (1) U.S. Bases were closed and RP is no longer the official battlefield of the superpowers and shock absorbers for the world; (2) EDSA I - pinoys restructure American puppet government using nothing but will power; (3) EDSA II - another restructuring, part of growing pains to think on your own; (4) Uprisings in the south financed by Midedle East terrorists - still in progress of being dismantled. Tell me, did the other Asian countries that the ADB compared us to have as much burden to overcome?

If the quality of the people reflect the country, then I would say that RP leads the way in providing top quality professionals. There isn't a hospital here in New York that is not manned (specially the grave yard shift) by Filipino nurses. If pinoys were to suddenly drop out, New York hospitals would be paralyzed. People like you and others on this board who give a damn are certainly contributing. The person that published an article on her vist to Manila is not representative of pinoys abroad. She speaks for herself and is the biggest moron of them all.

(p.s. if I mispell its because I'm dependent on spell check which this board does not seem to have)

why, oh why do i get more brain fart?

(by the way, mac, you should know by now that i'm incorrigible when it comes to things like this. )

benign0, i'm not after what you do in your leisure time. i'm asking you what you do professionally to effect this change. if you do something, other than generally b!itch around, share it. get others involved, preferably on a more pro-active level.

what's my message? get off your @sses and do something!

quite frankly, i've read your "proposal," and you really don't want me to comment on it. because there are HUGE flaws in both your analysis and in the way you're going about this whole thing.

i can PM you, if you want, before i post it here. just so at least you'll have a warning.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: raggster ]

Benign0, further more...while your criticisms are well intentioned you are contributing to the erosion of the already bankrupt self estemm that pinoys have. Maybe you can try focusing on the bright side for a change. The fact that articles such as "Nasty's" are published shows how so low the self-esteem is - even the most stupid person abroad can be viewed as right.

If you had a dysfuntional child, would your approach be to bury the child with cold facts of her hopelessness? I don't think pinoys have to be reminded of their failures. They live it everyday. What they need is a reminder of their inherent ability to be world class (ok, that's controversial) and the opportunities ahead.

I agree with you. Apologies for the misunderstanding as I am also of the opinion that there was nothing in our past that we can consider truly glorious.


It's so easy to blame these "burdens to overcome" for our failure. The fact that we were supposedly the No. 2 economy of Asia after WWII and the most promising bulb in what was a dark region in the 50's shows that we had more than our fair share of opportunities to succeed.

What were then the colonial backwaters of Singapore and Malaya, and the war-ravaged countries of Korea and Taiwan are now the most prosperous countries in the region.

Hard statistics? My site is loaded with them (use the site's search engine): Key words: per-capita GNP, labour productivity, English proficiency, the UN's Human Development Index, you name it. Each one is a testament to our chronic backwardness relative to our neighbours.


Fact remains, these professionals you cite are (1) not representative of the average Filipino, and (2) had to leave their homeland to prosper. They owe their prosperity to the environment provided by the US, an environment that appreciates their skills and rewards these handsomely.

Item 2 is most telling: Why are we as a people unable to build for ourselves a nation capable of providing an environment that can sustain the aspirations of its own professionals? By citing how the brightest Pinoys are drawn to countries like the US merely highlights the dismal failure of the Philippines as a nation.


What person? What article?


Whatever you say, dude.


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Maybe because you ask for it.


We'll see how long you can sustain your candor.

Mr. mac certainly couldn't.


How do you know I am not actively recruiting "others"?

And why is my professional background relevant to this discussion? Check out our politicians and technocrats. They are bristling with PhDs and MBAs. Yet they presided over the region's most massive state failure.


What makes you think I am sitting on my @ss doing nothing?


Oooo. Now we're cookin'

But before we explore further your opinion of my work, do you really expect me to take your word for it that these "huge flaws" exist if you refuse to explain why they exist?

It's easy to sit there and throw unsubstantiated criticisms at my work.

Maybe you're not up to the challenge?

Let me guess: You've got better things to do.

So why bring it up if you lack the wherewithal to back your assertions in the first place?


My earlier sentences stand corrected.

Now we're really cookin'!

But why spare the public your views in a PM? I'd rather you post it here so we can get on with it.

At least you'll be on-topic for a change.


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[ March 15, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

What "bright side"?


Why don't you point our specifically which among Nasty's assertion are false once and for all?

Just because something don't sound pretty doesn't mean it ain't true, dude.

And suppression of truth can be a real tragedy if you recall.


On the contrary, I think they do.

Haven't you heard about our world-renowned short memory?

We've got Marcoses and Estradas gallivanting all over the country's political and social scene. Maybe this article may throw some light into this perspective.


Of course those "opportunities" lie within the reach of Filipinos. Question is are we reaching for them?

Buy Filipino
The Filipino can!
Philippines 2000
Proud to be Pinoy!
Filipino ingenuity!

All of the above sound familiar to you? They are just excerpts from a much longer list. I think there have been enough half-witted sloganeering campaigns to remind Filipinos that they "could be" world-class.

So how come we are still world-class wanna-be's today?

And if Pinoys, as you said "live it everyday", why do some morons still think that Pinoys are the world's happiest people?


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A N N O U N C E M E N T ! !

Get a load of the latest article on Get Real!

Still pointing your self-righteous finger at everyone and asking them what they have done for their country?

Self-reliance. We pester the elite of our society with calls for acts of heroism when the burden of extra hard work in reality falls on the shoulders of the poor masses.


Happy reading!

i wanna shake my head in disgust just like raggster. but i do like the way the koreans delivered severe justice to chun and roh within the rule of the law.

Why Doesn't benign0's Analysis Work?

An Initial Analysis

*since he asked for it!

the Solution Article seems solid enough. however, it suffers from three fundamental problems:

1. utter lack of references: while there are numerous allusions to historical events and trends, he does not provide us with any literature that would validate his analysis. he doesn't even what, is no one trustworthy enough a historian?

1.a. the few references we DO have elsewhere in the site are highly obscure, and have no credentials. again, how sure are we that this analysis is accurate, grounded on fact? are we to take the webmaster's word that all this is "real?"

2. cultural conflict: he admits that we are culturally incompatible to the Western models of development, yet proposes that we change our culture (as if such change can be effected within a lifetime) and maintain our Westernized development plans (which, incidentally, is that which we can more easily modify and adapt to our situation).

3. utter lack of an action plan: on the outset, we are presented with general modes of action, and nothing more. there is no concrete, structured action plan being proposed; instead, we find a lot of appeals towards personal effort, probably in the hopes of effecting change on the communal, and eventually on the national scale. the recently plugged article on Self-Reliance confirms this paradigm. this leads to two problematic situations:

3.a. development as informal? - without a structured, integrated development plan, this proposal is ate best targeted at individual change, on the informal levels. this approach is highly unreliable. we have no indicators, no tangible data, no mechanism for feedback and analysis. how then can the success of this approach be measured? how do we, in fact, KNOW that the Filipinos are taking all this advice to heart?

speaking of taking this advice:

3.b. improper advocacy: if, on the other hand, this is an advocacy campaign, then it is in the wrong venue. since it advocates change on the personal level, then by principle it must reach the majority of citizens to effect any real change over time. as it is, the Internet is the wrost possible platform you can use, beause only less than 2% of our entire population uses the Internet on a regular basis, much less for activites as specific as searching for development advocacies.


comments are welcome.

~~~

think of my earlier comments as thinly disguised (though obviously not thinly enough, since you still can't get it) questions meant to fish whatever development efforts you're currently engaged in. i'm personally curious.

oops.

[ March 18, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

Lovely.


I leave it up to the reader to validate whatever assertions I make on that site. Since you choose to refute these logical assertions, the burden of citing counter-references rests on you.

The content of that site draws its validtiy from the soundness of the logic and reasoning behind the assertions made there. Readers are encouraged to refute the logic and reasoning behind these. Any gradeschool student can research historical events and crunch numbers and spew out statistics.


AS you yourself said. It is up to you to take my word for what is presented in that website. The burden of proof as to the falseness of these assertions rests on you who and anyone else who chooses to spend time refuting obvious facts about Pinoy culture.

Your call for credentials is old hat. Many have come before you challenging me to present my credentials. My credentials lie in the logic and reasoning behind the assertions I make.


That's why I propose cultural change -- to make ours compatible with Western models of development which we choose to apply to our own efforts to develop our nation.

Note that I make no assertion that we "maintain our Westernized development plans" at all costs. I maintain that we have chosen to follow Western models of development and since we have chosen thus, that we change our culture to facilitate the application of said model.

And, no, there is no way that change of the magnitude I propose can be effected in one lifetime (which is the subject of the next piece I am working on). That's the trouble with us. Our mindset is short-term and does not span generations (such as the way the Chinese think) where each generation lays foundations for subsequent generations.


We've barely started developing the concept and you are already saying it won't work. Isn't such an attitude the hallmark of every institution and entity that stood in the way of progress?

Japan did it during the Meiji restoration.

Singapore underwent its own social engineering effort (to cite an extreme case, LKY successfully eradicated the practice of spitting and the removal of spitting bowls from public buildings).

Developing the framework for implementing the solutions and measuring its success is part of the solutions development exercise which I've pointed out on the site is a work-in-progress.

As I said. The reader has two options depending on how constructive he or she is:

1. He/she either highlights the gaps and point them out, full stop (as what you are doing right now); or,

2. He/she recognises the gaps and then contribute ideas to fill these gaps.

Note that by posting the two pieces on Trust and Self-Reliance, I've already entered into the next phase of this exercise (the first phase being the development of the Framework at a high-level).

Do you see the drill-down iterative approach being taken?

And you say it is "highly-unreliable". As if any framework that Philippine society has ever latched on to has served it well. Reliability has never been a virtue of anything Filipino, for that matter. So what is wrong with trying an untested formula?


The fact that it is already a challenge conveying it to representatives of the Philippine intelligentsia such as yourself already speaks of the challenges that lie ahead.

As I said. It depends on how constructive you are. Our social caste controls virtually the entire information dissemination infrastructure of the nation. So, in principle, any concept that takes root in our circles should eventually be imparted (i.e. cascaded) down the social fabric.

It's the whole principle behind the Jesuits' investment of their time and effort educating the elite (as what they are doing in the Ateneo and Xavier). The hope is that the elite, being in the best position to influence the most, shall do its part.


It is also the cheapest medium considering no serious publication will publish highly politically-incorrect views such as mine.


Whatever you say.

I'm flattered that you continue to be focused on benign0 rather than benign0's message. Maybe we'll have coffee sometime. Depends on how impressive your manner of discussing turns out.

At least you've gone beyond non-value-adding posts like:





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oh rag,

incorrigible or not, it won't matter to mr. tapeworm here. can't you see he's just feeding on your inputs? he's been doing this in PEX for more than 2 years now (and he's still clueless).

no matter. as it stands, his website contains quite a few contradicting ideas and articles. other articles scream of poorly done research.

besides, everyone has hope, mac.

~~~

benign0, it doesn't help your case to refer to "logic and reason" as the final criterion for credibility. in the real world, what is credible is what works.

the reason why i pointed out those three initial problems is that those problems are indicative of a lack of any real working capacity of your framework. and the way you replied, all you did was cleverly divert the burden of proof from you to me (which doesn't work, since it is clearly your burden to show us that your idea works), and to ingeniusly color the discussion with a "whoever is not with me is against progress" sentiment (which, again, doesn't work, since such a statement presumes that your idea actually works, which no one, not even you, can say for sure).

even those articles you boast of about Self-Reliance and Trust are nothing more than an expounding of ideas that are a) nowhere near new, and still lacking in terms of structured action plans on a societal level.

in reality, what you are doing now is nothing more than cheap advocacy. advocacy, because you never clearly show how the ideas can be actualized, and cheap, because insofar as credibility goes, your appeal to "logic and reason" isn't worth a whole lot.

i had a look at your Framework article. i can't say that i'm impressed. (in fact, i'm not.) no matter who detailed your "plan" is, you assume that it will "eventually yield a suite of initiatives, composed of projects, and, in turn, composed of action steps encompassing."

the question is HOW. even if i was impressed by what you said, this would still be the question lingering in my mind. how do we translate this framework from fantasy to reality? again, this gap is never addressed, and is instead treated in the article, and indeed in the entire website, as an eventuality, rather than an active undertaking.

telling me that "it's still in development" is not an excuse, especially since you've been at it for two years (if i take mac's word for it). surely by now you must have been able to research enough data tp put together some sort of prototype development plan for at least a small socio-political unit, like the barangay.



tell you what. here's a challenge for you. take your framework and ideas, and see if you can create a draft action plan for the barangay political unit. take your time, no pressure. but at least show us that your "solution" CAN actually be used in real life, and isn't just rhetoric of a would-be megalomaniac.

Amen to that.
~~~

And is there anything about the Philippines that "works"?

Using your definition of "credibility", I could therefore go further to assert that anything that comes out of the mouth of a Filipino is not credible, don't you think?


That's because my framework is still a proposal. Therefore, there is no empirical way of proving it will work. Therefore, it can only be evaluated on its logical merit.

Your above paragraph does not address this challenge to evaluate its logical merit. You merely argue about the nature of the manner of our discussion and not the topic at hand.


As I said, it is merely the second layer of a still undetermined number of layers to which we shall drill down in the coming months or years (depending on, in the words of Mr. mac_bolan00, the incoming traffic of "inputs" from your types I could "feed on" as well).

I'm in no hurry, you know.


More ad hominems I see.

Where do you feel this line of query will lead you?


Same question as the previous, different wording.


Yet another re-worded form of a question I already answered.


Typical.

You seek to put the horse behind the cart.

You seek to take "active undertaking[s]" before thinking a proper context to these "actions" through.

You just described in a nutshell the entire history of the Philippines.

How many of todays technologies, political systems, and paradigms do you think started out as vague and ambiguous frameworks from armchair philosophers like me?


Considering that I am doing this single-handedly (well, with the help of a few contributors and friends) and have to respond to quaint ad hominems (instead of input pertaining to the issues themselves)from people like you, I reckon it'll take me another 2 to 3 years to get to the actual implementation part of the framework.

I'm in no hurry. I already live in "some place wonderful".

I think the burden of urgency rests on those who choose to live in our not-too-wonderful motherland.


Why don't you do that if you are really serious about testing my ideas.

I've already got my strategic vision for my site laid out for the next several years and I intend to stick to it.

The burden of urgent interpretation and -- possibly -- implementation rests on you islanders who are impacted by the dysfunction of the motherland the most.

You're talking about making excuses? The success of a handful of nations is no big secret. There are enough books that describe the blueprints behind the success of these nations. The Philippines and all Third World nations have access to these "blueprints", specially today with the Internet where citizens of even the most repressive regimes can access this knowledgebase of details that describe the secrets to the success of the First World.

Do you really think there is an excuse to failure given this wide availability of knowledge to succeed?

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[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

thank you for verifying my statements.



you've already supposedly provided the proper context, have you not? my question is simply a follow-up from your articles.

let me rephrase it, just so we're clear: "Given that developmental context of cultural re-alignment that you outline, what are the critical structured actions steps that must be implemented?"

or are you conceding that this framework of yours is insufficient? apparently you are, since you concede that it is still in development and is thus incomplete.

that being the case, since your solutions framework is unfinished, and your critical next steps a faraway dream, then what, exactly, are you talking about when you say that the credibility of your logic and reason cannot be questioned? by your own admission, the idea is not even whole yet.



it amuses me to no end that someone who advocates against "finger-pointing" would resort to exactly that when the practicability of his framework is put into question.

i won't say this again. it is not my burden to show that your solution framework is practicable. my position is one of open questioning. and thus far, your answers are found severely wanting.

That's what I'm working on. I'm still at the top most levels of the framework.


That's what I've been telling you for the past several posts.


I never said it "cannot be questioned". I said that it should be questioned from a logic/reasoning perspective.

Your initial approach was to question its credibility from an empirical and credentials perspective. Recall the following gems of yours:

and


You had two other observations:

and

I believe I've already answered 2, 3, and 3.a. and your next statement (from your last post which I respond to in this post) verifies that you've understood my answer to 3 and 3.a. thus:

To the item 2, I've responded with the examples of Singapore and Japan.

Now all of a sudden you make an unsubstantiated claim (and I challenge you to cite where I said this) that I assert that my logic/reasoning "cannot be questioned".

If you try a bit more carefully to understand my responses to your ad-hoministic remarks (i.e. which most of your "evaluation" falls under), I've been trying to tell you in the last 3-4 posts that questions directed at the nature of my logic and reasoning is what I am trying to get my detractors to focus on. Instead, most of them -- you included -- focus on credentials, references, and empirical proof.


That is because your questions are out of scope. This thread aims to present my ideas for critical examination. It does not aim to glorify what I might be doing beyond my efforts to disseminate "getrealist" ideas.

If my aim was to boast of my credentials, university degree, and pedigree (which I think Mr. mac_bolan00 is the resident expert on - Is that why you two get along?), then you'd be spot on with the line of questioning you have so far dished out in this thread.


Again, my objectives here are very simple:

(Objective 1) to disseminate "getrealist" ideas and promote my site, and;
(Objective 2) to expand my site by "feed[ing] on" (as your pal mac_bolan00 aptly put it) input I receive as a result of my activites related to Objective 1).
(Objective 3) respond to and take on-board questions about the logical merit of the ideas I put forward.

Therefore:

- If your "open questioning" is all about the logic/reasoning behind the ideas I present here and on my website, then let's play ball.

- But if your "open questioning" is about speculating on what I do beyond presenting my "getrealist" ideas (and the logic behind them), then you may as well discuss with a brick wall as this line of questioning is out of scope.


That is because you ask the wrong questions as far as the topic of this thread is concerned.

Don't worry, I think you are getting there. I'll try to use shorter words and sentences from now on.


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[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: benign0 ]

the above reply of benign0 begs the question of whether or not a development framework is to be scrutinized on its logical merit or its practical/practicable ones. audience, you be the judge.

since benign0 obviously can't answer the question of practicability, (took him long enough to finally come to terms with it) then let's leave it at that. since he's so itching to start talking in terms of armchair philosophy, we'll start on the "even if" part of my analysis next.

i'll post again later this evening.