You make it sound that our special forces units could not possibly be issued such equipment. Do you have access to their TO&E (Table of Organization & Equipment) such that you can expertly say what they can and cannot have? Why are you so quick to assume that the missing C4 from last year is the same one that these troops were carrying on them?



What evidence are you talking about? The ones found in the houses of Erap's ex-cabinet member and mistress? First of all, isn't it a bit too convenient that these were found out so quickly? You said it's impossible that the authorities planted the the items because the press was present at the time of the raid. Isn't it odd that no pictures were taken nor shown to the public of the raid?



You obviously were not around during the time of Martial Law in the Philippines. Even then a case was always filed before an arrest was authorized or effected.



And I suppose that everybody on the side of the administration is on the straight and narrow. Such naiveté is the reason why the Philippines is in the doghouse. These "jokers" were given the mandate by the people to serve as a balancing factor so that the administration would not have a rubberstamp in congress.



In case you've forgotten, it is not the job of Erap to prove his innocence. Rather, it is the job of the prosecution to present evidence to find him guilty beyond reasonable doubt. A task that they have not yet fulfilled to this day. In fact, it is the cases that caused his ouster that he is currently being tried for. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.



You think? Computerization will not guarantee that fraud will be harder to commit. The state of California, with all its computerized voting is still not exempt from massive vote fraud. NGOs and Namfrel will be useless in the provinces and the other outlying areas.

[ 08, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

That's a nice camera then. Except for one thing. That description you gave, that is based on the movie version of the camera, right? I looked it up. It does allow for earphones but I saw nothing with regard to that "rectangular monocle-like glass pane propped before an eye" that you described.

Was this what you were talking about?
Panasonic SV-AV30

And how did you know that it was what you said it is? I mean with it being as small as it is.

Depth 2.94 in.
Height 1.06 in.
Weight .21 lb.
Width 2.44 in.

[ 08, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

Caught on TV camera was one of the rebel officers using an opaque pane placed before his left eye, similar to what Angelina Jolie used at Tombraider. In the movie, they used said digicam which can be connected to a headphone with the eye pane. It's presumed that the rebel soldier used a similar digicam.

There's a difference between the stuff that you see used in the movies as compared to what is actually out in the market. Remember that cellphone used by Pierce Brosnan in one of the James Bond movies? Well just because he can use the phone to control his beemer in the movie does not mean that the phone can actually do that. Now, as we see the basis for the assumption that the soldier had the same camera on him is that he was seen with an opaque lens on his left eye coupled with a movie.

I would dare to assume that this is another example of media's imagination bringing out sensational reporting.

What then was the purpose of that opaque glass pane before the rebel soldier's left eye? Was it just for show? Was there really nothing connected to it? Did he just put on this high tech gear to sow fear? The rebel soldiers were serious enough to plant real bombs in the Oakwood vicinity, so their use of the high tech gadgets couldn't have been just for show.

That opaque glass pane must be connected to some digicam which can transmit the images to the crooked financier and plotters of the failed coup.

Now that you raised it, yes it was all pa-epek. The C-4 set around the perimeter would have done nothing more than create a loud bang and take out that to which it was attached. You see C-4 is a demolition-type explosive. The only way it would be any deadly is if you actually stuck pieces of metal (or in some cases shards of glass or plastic) around it to serve as shrapnel.

If I were to set up explosive devices around the perimeter I would have used claymores which are anti-personnel devices.

Second, if I were seriously counting on a firefight I wouldn't station any of my troops out in the open to be picked off by the opposing force. I would have left the opfor guessing.

Third, I would not have allowed the press anywhere close or worse yet inside Oakwood lest I risk having someone come in and recon my defenses.

And lastly, I wouldn't be so quick to show my enemies how "high-tech" I really am. In the words of Sun Tzu, show your enemies strength when you are weak and weakness when you are strong.

By the way, the press is the last place to look for credible info on highly technical pieces of equipment such as firearms, satphones, explosives, and most of all movie-based camera equipment.

this doesnt make sense. how can u plant evidence such as armbands (this takes weeks to make), hi tech communications (where in the world can the AFP get the money for this nor purchase it w/in 3 wks), satellite radios, Steyr Aug machine guns (not in the inventory), medical kits, documents, camel backpacks, night vision, etc..

if u are an intelligence service, wala namang ganoon ka galing to prepare those things in such a short time to plant it?!??? shabu cguro, is easy to plant. but of this magnitude, this takes at least six months to one yr to prepare for something like this.

besides, how can the govt plant these things when media was w/ the group that raided the house in Mandaluyong and Dasma Village? could u answer that?

u believe things based on your preference and biases, however, i choose to believe the extremely good evidence at hand. if there is indeed a plant, the evidence wouldnt be this good and detailed.it would be KISS, keep it simple stupid. this would avoid inconsistencies w/c would surely come out in cases of planting evidence.

from the evidence, it would appear it wasnt a simple case of mutiny but "the assumption of power" to effect sweeping change and reforms. in the modern world, this smacks of a military junta w/c is so passe and we will be back to square one during martial law.[/B][/QUOTE]


if you would look at the sequence of events, the police first discovered the "official" HQ of the magdalo group before they "discovered" the alleged house of Laarni... don't you think they got the arm bands from the prior place?

these are assumptions...yeah, i know.

accdg to kant, "there is no absolute truth".

---amdg

magdalo,

most of your questions are hypothetical and are not entirely accurate. u pull out half truths and present them as true. obviously from ur nickname, u are from a biased point of view. w/ regard to the proof at hand, u did not really answer them.

-----------------
You make it sound that our special forces units could not possibly be issued such equipment. Do you have access to their TO&E (Table of Organization & Equipment) such that you can expertly say what they can and cannot have? Why are you so quick to assume that the missing C4 from last year is the same one that these troops were carrying on them?

The C-4 set around the perimeter would have done nothing more than create a loud bang and take out that to which it was attached. You see C-4 is a demolition-type explosive. The only way it would be any deadly is if you actually stuck pieces of metal (or in some cases shards of glass or plastic) around it to serve as shrapnel.
-----------

know some ppl who update me on the latest equipments, some operations against enemies of the state and i know a lot of military hardware and equipment since it is one of my interests. so i know what im talking about. what are u talking about that it wouldnt do serious damage when detonated?!? do u know that C4 is one of the most powerful "compact" bombs available? w/ the size i saw , it could do "serious" damage to ppl and property. although the radius of damage wouldnt be as big as when shrapnels are included.

-----------------------
If I were to set up explosive devices around the perimeter I would have used claymores which are anti-personnel devices.
----------------------

well, u were not there. besides, why in the world would u place claymores on concrete roads?? if u put it in the grass area, it can be easily seen. besides, the detonation is not in the control of the magdalo soldiers. claymores are effective in guerilla warfare in jungles, beachefronts, etc. not in an urban setting.

--------------------------
Second, if I were seriously counting on a firefight I wouldn't station any of my troops out in the open to be picked off by the opposing force. I would have left the opfor guessing.
--------------------------

well, again, u werent there.

--------------------------
Third, I would not have allowed the press anywhere close or worse yet inside Oakwood lest I risk having someone come in and recon my defenses.
-------------------------------

it was a propaganda war. psy-ops was more impt for them than a tactical firefight. besides, they were surrounded w/ helicopter gunships, tanks, artillery waiting to bomb them out of existence. in their plan, they would broadcast to the phils that they were fighting a just fight hoping the civilian and military would converge and topple the present govt.

-------------------
And lastly, I wouldn't be so quick to show my enemies how "high-tech" I really am. In the words of Sun Tzu, show your enemies strength when you are weak and weakness when you are strong.
------------------------

again, u werent there. and again, psy-ops was their ace. but sadly, the coup attempt was discovered early so they werent able to organize better.


-----------------------
That's a nice camera then. Except for one thing. That description you gave, that is based on the movie version of the camera, right? I looked it up. It does allow for earphones but I saw nothing with regard to that "rectangular monocle-like glass pane propped before an eye" that you described.

Was this what you were talking about?
Panasonic SV-AV30
----------------------


dgirl is right u know. it does exist. it is but one of the obvious proofs about the coup plot. according to former plotters, it is impossible to mount w/out a civilian financial component. some ppl will do anything to get out of jail. even at the expense of national security, constitution, economy, and the filipino ppl. kawawa lahat for the MISadventures of a few.

--------------------
What evidence are you talking about? The ones found in the houses of Erap's ex-cabinet member and mistress? First of all, isn't it a bit too convenient that these were found out so quickly? You said it's impossible that the authorities planted the the items because the press was present at the time of the raid. Isn't it odd that no pictures were taken nor shown to the public of the raid?
---------------------

in crime investigations u piece evidence together. u sniff out what manifests. there are too many evidence for the world to see as long as they are not close minded, myopic and biased to a certain group or belief. one undisputable fact is the televised declaration of mutiny by the officers read by gambala. it was clear from the left side of the place where they conducted the televised statement that it is similar to the house of mr. cardenas. that is proof that cannot be tampered w/ nor produced for political reasons. it is simply impossible.

i hope that u will give the feliciano commission a chance to investigate coz that group is composed of very upright and competent ppl.


-----------------------
And I suppose that everybody on the side of the administration is on the straight and narrow. Such naiveté is the reason why the Philippines is in the doghouse. These "jokers" were given the mandate by the people to serve as a balancing factor so that the administration would not have a rubberstamp in congress.
------------------------

nope, not saying that. as i said, fight corruption wherever it may thrive whether admin or opposition. im just saying that instead of dwelling only on attacking the present govt, look at what those irresponsible and terroristic magdalo soldiers did. problems are never solved by the barrel of the gun.


-----------------------------
In case you've forgotten, it is not the job of Erap to prove his innocence. Rather, it is the job of the prosecution to present evidence to find him guilty beyond reasonable doubt. A task that they have not yet fulfilled to this day. In fact, it is the cases that caused his ouster that he is currently being tried for. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
------------------

their job is finished. the defense "presents evidence to dispute the charges" . just wait for the final verdict in the future.

-----------------------
You think? Computerization will not guarantee that fraud will be harder to commit. The state of California, with all its computerized voting is still not exempt from massive vote fraud. NGOs and Namfrel will be useless in the provinces and the other outlying areas.
---------------------------

in case u do not know, there are many volunteers. these ppl are trying to be part of the solution and not the problem. what im saying is , it can be reduced. this world is not perfect but we strive towards that goal one step at a time. most of your views seem to be sort of a griping,grievance session w/out any real solutions in sight.

reminds me of a couple of ppl in oakwood a few wks ago...

Iceman,

Just goes to show that your knowledge of such things does not match the amount of interest you have on the subject of explosives. To call C4 a bomb is as much a misnomer as calling ammunition bullets. Bullets are the projectiles that are hurled at such great speed through the barrel of the gun when that gun's firing pin or striker impacts with the primer of the cartridge which, in turn, explodes thus igniting the propellant (gun powder) resulting in a massive build up of pressure in the cartridge. Simply put, a bullet is just a component of the whole cartridge and not the cartridge itself.

Same goes with C4. C4 or Composition 4 is an extremely stable plastic explosive. On its own it is no more dangerous than any piece of clay. For it to explode, you would need to apply some kind of energy that would set the chemical reaction in motion. Shooting it or burning it would not result in that chemical reaction. In fact, if you were to light it with a match all that will happen is that it will burn slowly like wood. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly. Furthermore, C4's most common application is that of demolitions (most commonly military in nature). And now we come to its power. Did you know that to demolish a truck you would actually need several 1.2 lb. blocks of C4 explosive? In fact, to take out an 8 sq. in. steel beam would require 8 to 10 lbs. of C-4.

But you see, even in this case, C4 is but only a component of a bomb. In fact, C4 is the explosive component of Claymores. Much like the gun powder in cartridges is the propellant component of said cartridge.

Now we come to claymores. Who told you that the claymore is not good for urban combat scenarios? Who told you that the only way to deploy a claymore is through sticking it in the ground? And why bother with trying to hide the claymores if they were deploying the C4 with the press watching them? And lastly, what do you mean that the claymores are not in the control of the magdalos?

Did you mean to say that the Magdalo troops did not have them in their arsenal? If so, why were they not supplied such by their boogiemen "handlers"? Lumalabas n'yan that whatever this group used in Makati were those that they were already issued by the AFP. Remember these are our frontline troops who were trained by the americans during the balikatan exercises. Naturalmente, they would be the ones issued all the gear that they were trained with. From the .50 caliber sniper rifles to the C4 explosives and blasting caps if any.

Next, if you read my response to Dgirl carefully you would have understood that the comments that I made were to prove that the drama in Makati was all pa-epek.

You accuse me of being biased because I question every piece of evidence that has been provided by the administration. Why don't you look at yourself first.....

• dgirl is right u know. it does exist. it is but one of the obvious proofs about the coup plot.
  
  This obvious proof is based on the assumption of a poster who bases hers on what she saw an officer have on his left eye and what she saw in a movie
• according to former plotters, it is impossible to mount w/out a civilian financial component.
  
  If that is true, then it only proves that this mutiny was done without a civilian financial component. If you were to compare it with the magnitude of the coup attempts perpetrated by Gringo in the past, this is small-time. What you seem to have discounted is the more obvious possibility that the Magdalo troops did this in response to the much publicized arrest order issued by GMA just a day before.
• it was clear from the left side of the place where they conducted the televised statement that it is similar to the house of mr. cardenas. that is proof that cannot be tampered w/ nor produced for political reasons. it is simply impossible.
  
  When you said "similar" did you mean that it was EXACTLY Mr. Cardenas' house? Or did you mean that it looked like Mr. Cardenas' house?
  
  You see in real investigations, nothing is impossible. Only highly improbable. But yet, no matter how improbable, these have to be looked into nonetheless. That is, of course, if the investigator was looking for the truth and not following the conscience of one who is, as you say, close minded, myopic and biased towards a certain group or belief.
• problems are never solved by the barrel of the gun.
  
  By this you mean a coup, right? And I suppose you believe that it has never happened in recent history, correct? If so, I refer you to the years 1986 and more recently 2001. While in the case of 2001 a shot was not fired nor a gun brandished, the mere fact that the military had stated that they no longer saw Erap fit to lead the country is indicative of a coup no matter how the events leading to his ouster are twisted and turned.

Now this statement is one that shows how much you still have to learn about Philippine politics.



Namfrel has been in the political arena since the snap elections of 1986. Up to now, it has not truly eradicated cheating in the countryside. You see, while Manila may be more progressive with regard to the democratic practices in the Philippines, the same cannot be said for the provinces where feudalism is still the norm rather than the exception.

Lastly, I will have to disagree with you as to your comment regarding the Magdalos doing nothing but gripe and grieve. What you failed to see (or you may have intentionally disregarded altogether) was that its leader had given his suggestions to none other than GMA herself prior to this little excercise that they conducted on 27 July. GMA did not take the necessary steps and instead hounded the Magdalos.

But I guess this was a result of her pride being hurt as she was called a "weak leader" by LTSG Trillanes in his writings. Alam mo naman si Ma'am, ayaw mapahiya. Mataas kasi ang pride. Kaya nga hanggang ngayon hindi pa nag-sosori sa isang babaing whistle-blower na prinisenta nyang isang suspek sa isang bank scam.

[ 12, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

A scenario as this is not unlikely. Erap may have missed that all-too important detail because he was maintaining many households in the first place. Besides, he was never really known as a good planner.

Evidence has been pointing to a "political component". The assumed owner of the house has given her testimony for public scrutiny.

The criminal procedure required of the charges of rebellion, mutiny and coup d etat must go beyond common sense because of the corresponding penalty and the nature of the deed.

biazon was not an administration appointee. he went there on his own accord. (most probably to earn pogi points)

let us just try to simplify things...

1. how did the soldiers raise P58K for the flags? the buyer was identified by the flag maker. signatures and all...

2. how did they pay for hotel rooms in oakwood the previous nights b4 the siege? some checked in earlier.

3. why did the vans of relatives of former president abandoned by young men in the vicinity of the armory of a cavite base? who let them borrow the vans? it wasnt reported stolen.

4. how did receipts (found in oakwood) of appliances/groceries were delivered to Jinggoy's house (as he admitted on tv the ownership of the property) ? who paid for them?

5. how did they buy the communication equipment worth millions that is NOT in the AFP armory? how did they buy those camelbaks? how did they buy those expensive knives w/c evidently is not issued by the AFP nor given by the americans? .i personally know they dont use this in the AFP nor were given by the americans.

6. the video from the raiding team along w/ ABS and GMA on cardenas' house and the statement by the coup plotters are EXACTLY THE SAME. how can u dispute that?

7. i have never heard of a rally that started at 6am. but one happened on the way to makati launched by the Guardians Brotherhood Members . how convenient and coincidental indeed. of all the days in a yr, how come they launched a rally right about the same time as the mutiny and exactly supposed to happen at the same place?how coincidental and convenient indeed.

these are just some of the evidence. hope u can answer these questions convincingly, and not veer on other irrelevant points. i guess the final arbiter should be the courts and that finally, crime should not pay. coz if u look very closely, a military junta w/ the help of some crooked lawmakers was their ultimate target to effect "sweeping reforms". we will be no different from burma if that happens.

winnie monsod made a very nice speech in her show in "mare at pare". she berated the military adventurists (past/present) for pulling this country down all the time w/ their messianic complexes. joker arroyo put it simply, " the survival of our democratic institutions should be our primordial concern."

YO Ice!
Think about this little detail: How did government forces get their own white logoed and serialised arm bands in just a few hours if that "mutiny" was the real deal? Did they conveniently have those white "good guy" arm bands lying around handy just in case? Sabi nga ng isang Officer na barkada ko, "Halatang-halata tuloy na sarswela lang ang nangyari."
And who's to say, really, that the government didn't stage the whole damn thing in the first place? The next national elections are less than 10 months away, and everybody and his brother is looking for instant recall with the voters, whether good or bad. Gringo for one has gotten incredible and FREE media mileage from all this, ditto GMA, Angie Reyes, Roy Cimatu and Roy Golez. Talk about a goddam senatorial lineup.

How much do you think is a camelbak anyway? Did you know that there are other companies that manufacture such hydration systems for much less? Don't you think that these officers could have made a deal with their american counterparts for these hydration systems during their training? Ika nga baka naman inawitan nila sa mga kano. Haven't you ever heard of Filipino relatives in the States who could have sent such things?

You talk of expensive knives. How expensive are they? How do you know that they are expensive? Could you give me a rundown of said knives?

What kind of comm equipment is being used by the AFP?

Are you in the military such that you would know exactly what was and was not issued to these troops during their balikatan exercises? Again I ask, do you really have any knowledge of the TO&E of these units?

You see your comment alone about C4 is enough for me to know that your expertise in such matters are still wanting.

Now we talk of receipts. What does this prove? Any two-bit lawyer worth his salt would be able to dispute that "evidence" has any connection with the troops. My first question would probably be "What crackhead would bring and then leave those receipts at oakwood?" Same goes with the diskettes that had the names of everyone involved..... It would have been more logical to find these diskettes in Cardenas' house than in some room at oakwood. And with all the names listed, why not have left it with one of those not to be present at Oakwood? Or better yet, why not have given said diskettes to Honasan when he "visited" them. I mean isn't supposed to be part of this group of mutineers?

Never heard of a rally starting at 6 am? Then you must be very young. Secondly, while conveniently coincidental to you, you seem to miss what was going to happen the next day. It is also very wise of these rallyist to go to makati as that was where the press was. Let us not forget that the news of the day was the oakwood stand-off. Even this rally would not have been heard of had it been held in, say, Luneta. Sheesh, you still have a lot to learn about publicity.

Now you talk of hotel rooms. Have you ever stayed in a REPUTABLE hotel? Don't you know that you're supposed to pay AFTER you've completed your stay?

But enough of your arguments because the plot thickens...

What was originally a kookoorookookoo is now a zarsuela.....

It seems that there are more than enough mini-plots in here to fill a mini-series. But I'll bet you it'll all boil down to one major plot.......

THE INEVITABLE REELECTION OF GLORIA MACAPAGAL-ARROYO TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!

[ 13, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

Just got this from Philippine Daily Inquirer...



See what happens to whistle-blowers. I guess doing the "right thing the right way" is not so RIGHT after all as far as this government is concerned.

Here's a question, why do these officers of the Philippine Marines suddenly crop up as part of some master list? Is it really because they are or is it because they want to be silenced?

I'm tellin' y'all..... this is getting to be quite a show....

[ 13, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

While material evidences bear in the prosecution of criminal charges, it must be borne in mind that circumstantial evidence has equal weight and basing from the results of ongoing investigations, there is a strong case against the mutineers with a political/civilian component.

The accused are guaranteed due process under the law and the President no less has expressed. The fears have no basis moreso now with the lifting of the state of emergency.

obviously your semantics wont get u anywhere. according to Capt. James Layug, swag team leader, "... we placed those C4 bombs or explosives to defend..." . i guess u must be more knowledgeable than the one who placed those C4 bombs (w/ detonator of course). obviously, your nitpicking on irrelevant details does not in any way bolster your points of contention. but rather a sorry attempt to put down the messenger.

those knives are imported from U.S. . it costs around P8,000 each. if u multiply that by 50, that's already P400K.

regarding the rally, wow, would u be able to organize a rally from 1:30am to 6am? having NRP banners of our esteemed senator, on the way to makati? come on.

besides, i would rather not talk about myself and my preferred tactics because i wasnt there. if your tactics were so good, then u should have been there in oakwood to be the commanding officer of the oakwood mutineers who are battle grizzled veterans for the past 8 yrs. maybe they might have been victorious w/ such a smart guy like you.

still, u havent answered most of the questions i posed but placed more questions.

i have one more to add though. did u see the face of trillanes when confronted w/ the picture of honasan beside trillanes w/ the magdalo flag behind it?

well, he was rattled for awhile and mumbling , "...it looks like honasan, sir." well, even irrepresible adaza was momentarily at a loss for words.

all i can say is, the picture tells a thousand stories. one, there is a remote possibility that there was a civilian political conspiracy. by the way , it's obvious the picture is not doctored.

i just know that the evidence at hand will ferret out the truth and history will judge that what the young officers did was an attempt to grab power w/ very strong civilian/political/financial/logistical support instead of just a simple "grievance session". they feel they are the saviors of the phils. , had they succeeded, who is to say they wont plunder the country w/out any institutions to watch their back in a military junta?

And this is your basis for thinking that I am wrong? That a military man calls C4 a bomb? And I suppose you would believe that what is really an M-655 carbine is not that because everybody in the military calls it a "baby" armalite? Or that an H&K MP-5 which is a submachinegun can also be called an assault rifle because that's what the guys at Crame called it? My point in this is that the current crop of Philippine military personnel is not as adept (nor do they care) as everybody thinks them to be with regard to the technicalities of certain equipment that they use. You of all people should've known this considering the interest that you claim you have on this type of subject.

How do you know that these knives are from the US? Did you procure them?

Who said that the rally was organized as late as 1:30 am?

As for my tactical expertise, again you should have read the post to understand that everything you saw on TV on 27 July was pa-epek. There was no fight to be had. They were waiting for the public to rally behind them. That is the reason why Trillanes was so disappointed when all of it was finished. Nobody came out...

You say its obvious that the picture was not doctored? Why? Are you an expert on these things? Do you have access to said pictures to personally assess whether they have been doctored or not? I've read somewhere that the experts are still debating over this?

And while there is a "possibility" of civilian political collusion:

1. It's just a possibility.
2. Even if there were political entities in the group based on the picture, you would still have to prove that they were part of those that planned this impromptu take-over of Oakwood.
3. That the take-over of Oakwood was just part of an elaborate plan to take-over the country as against the contention of those who were there that it was a panic-induced, defensive reaction to the hunt-down order publicly issued by GMA.

Learn to dig deeper than the newspaper clippings and what you see on TV if you really want to get to the bottom of this.



You seem so sure of this. We shall see.

[ 15, 2003: Message edited by: Magdalo ]

The president can express all she wants. What I've seen during her tenure tells me otherwise.