Can anyone help out here? I don't know where to go...I know most of the people reading these forums are ateneans...but can you give unbiased comments? Like, for one, how are the exams? the grading system? recitation din ba all the time? schedules? culture?

I heard Ateneo's good in corporate law, while UP is better when it comes to litigation, may practicum daw sa UP. Don't they have one in Ateneo?

You should go to the law school that's suited for you.

Both law schools conduct classes through the socratic method, that is, through recitation. But in UP, my impression is that it's "strict socratic" - the teacher is as just as interested to teach, as he is interested to scare the hell out of you/terrorize you/and allegedly "train you as a litigator".

In Ateneo, a UP student who sat in said that the teachers are "nicer" (I find this hard to believe, I have teachers who will try their hardest to make you piss on your pants!). But the regimen in Ateneo is a lot tougher. You finish all the required subjects by the middle of third year then you start taking electives, you write a thesis, then you do bar review in senior year.

You're also required to go through internship in Ateneo. In Ateneo, its 240 hours during summer, in UP, you take it during the whole of senior year.

I chose Ateneo because I heard that in UP, some teachers don't really "teach" (but surprise, surprise, there are teachers like that in Ateneo too!). The facilities in Ateneo are also much better. The whole environment is conducive to studying.

Also, may "signal" sa Ateneo.

tripleaxel! very graphically and vividly described. you scared me.
i now thinking which school to go to. so how's it like there in ateneo?
exactly how? i'm really clueless about law school. does it really require a certain personality or is it really "survivable".

and thanks.. buti na lang may signal. at least i can text someone when i'm scared hahahah.
any advice? thanks

precisely what i was thinking..i know i should choose the school that best suits me, but the thing is, i don't know much about the two schools.

though, i'm aware that your success depends on your self alone, it is also true that there are certain "oppurtunities" offered by the two schools that are best suited for some kinds of students than for others.

hey rover, are you an incoming freshman too? where will you most likely be going?

i had a chance to sit in one of the classes in UP. it was supposed to start at 9, but it was almost 10 when it started. they even said that sometimes, if the teacher wants to have a joint class, the teacher starts the class 1 hour earlier than the scheduled time. texting plays an important part..you're lost if you don't text...kaya lang, wala ngang signal.

tripleaxel: thanks!

one more...how do they decide who to kick out, and how many students to kick out? that's what i'm really afraid of in ateneo.

stardust! yep me too.
i'm kinda thinking rin.
i just wanted to add some more questions:
how many units are there per sem? so is it like college na full load? how manageable is the load?
dress codes?
how bout blocks? do we still have that like in freshman year?

stardust, good luck too! which ever school you get into. i hope somebody here gives us the best advice!

hey timely topic. i am also torn which school to go to. i know ateneo and UP are in comparable terms when it comes to churning out quality grads but how is life inside 'em? im particularly interested to know about the academic rigor in both schools. i know law is hard but its supposed to be survivable and learnable. any advice on which school to go to???

Rover: as far as i know, ateneo law school has a dress code...corporate attire. i think that's what they call it. as for UP, casual lang, as long as you are dressed appropriately for class (bawal ang faddish and too daring - so they say... )
in terms of blocks, ateneo have them in the freshman year...but since they eliminate a certain number of students equivalent to one block by the end of first year...i don't know what happens na...do they merge the sections? or do they retain them? in UP, they retain the sections, no matter how dwindling the numbers are.

yun lang po ang nakalap kong impormasyon ukol sa dalawang pamantasan.

Teka lang...i posted this topic, why do i end up answering questions??? :confused:

hey rover and shadowhunter, is it true that we have to confirm our slots in ateneo by monday (may 21)? hehehe nakibalita lang kasi ako sa jesuits kung pasado ako eh...i haven't been to rockwell yet.

anyway, goodluck to us all!

how many units are there per sem?

sa UP, 16. Sa Ateneo, 21. you take more subjects in Ateneo, kasi nga, you finish everything by the middle of junior year.

so is it like college na full load?

no, heavier ang load sa Ateneo law.

how manageable is the load?

it gets more manageable as you get used to it. it's hard in the beginning. I think this is the same for both schools, pero more so in Ateneo.

dress codes?

sa ateneo, for boys, long sleeve polo and tie, or barong. for girls, "decent office attire" whatever that means.

how bout blocks? do we still have that like in freshman year?

may blocks forever sa ateneo. sa freshmen year, you will have six blocks this year. as the freshmen are dismissed, the blocks are merged. so pagdating ng senior year mga 2-3 blocks na lang.

THANKS!!!!!
stardust, yeah i think we have to confirm the slots by monday.
naku, 21 units?!?!??!? eh 19 nga lang ako sa college ah! anyway, so how are the classes distributed? how many per day, class hours, etc? pero at least may signal!
thanks again for the info tripleaxel.

yeah, i think we have to confirm our slots and also pay tuition na rin yata. is it? i forgot na eh. i went to rockwell last week to check out the results. dami rin pala nakapasa eh.

anyway, i want to know if its more manageable to stay in UP or Ateneo. manageable as in, survivable. i dont want to be a casualty statistic naman at the end of my first yr.

and also, do the bar review in senior yr also count and have grades? i mean, if its bar review, then why cant we just review on our own? like in the States?

WHAT?! Pay tuition already? that means i really have to decide now...too bad the UP results aren't out yet and the notice there says friday pa daw... that means i have the weekend to think...assuming that i pass. hehehe

maybe UP can do me a favor and not include me in the list (yabang no?)...but that would be a real big blow on my ego!

more questions: shadowhunter is right...i don't want to be part of that statistics either, so what are the stats? do they stick to the stats? i mean, if the batch is really, really good, and a lot got high marks, will they still trim the batch down to 2 to 3 sections? do they curve grades in law school? or they just have a standard? that's all for now, i guess.

thanks tripleaxel, you're a big help! :cool: :cool:

hi,

Enrollment of Ateneo is always earlier than release of results in UP. What several of my batchmates did was to enroll in Ateneo and pay the least amount of tuition possible. When UP results came out, they just enrolled in UP again. You can get a refund of tuition when you decide not to continue, after enrolling.

There is a required qpi of 78 for first year. If all freshmen don't flunk anything and they get 78, I don't see any reason why ADMU would not allow everyone to continue.

Note too that the classes are also reduced because some people choose not to continue law school. After orsem, about 10 people drop. Then about 10 more drop after intro to law. 5 more drop before midterms, 5 drop before finals. So there.

ADMU is definitely more difficult than UP. In Admu, you take:

Consti 3 units
Persons 4
Crim 3
Labor 3
Philo of Law 2
Statutory Construction 2
Intro to Law 1
Legal Research 1
Legal Profession 1

In UP,
Persons 4
Consti 4
Crim 3
Statcon 2 yata
Legal Prof 2 yata
Legal Method 1 yata

Note that 2 unit classes are sometimes just as heavy as 4 unit classes, in terms of reading load.

No curving of grades in Ateneo, but after every semester, the professors deliberate on the grades. Our Persons prof said that in our deliberations, 2 classes were supposed to flunk out. But because the performance of the batch improved so much after the midterms, and because they thought that the batch had so much potential, the professors lowered the passing grade. So 4 classes were left.

Bar review in senior year is graded. Our law in the Philippines is civil law in nature, which means we have codified laws. We study codes and cases. In the States, their laws are case law. They study only cases. Bar exams in the States raw are easier, because they test logic and common sense more. Also, you will notice if you watch Ally McBeal or movies about law, the cases are usually argued on the basis of reasonableness, rather than strict statutory application.

Our laws are also so voluminous, that you study only chunks of it at a time from 1st year to 3rd year. 4th year bar review is important because of the integrative nature of the classes. This is the way I, an incoming sophomore, see it. But then my explanation is pretty logical, don't you think?

thanks tripleaxel for the info. anyway, additional questions. =)

1) whats the highest QPI that one can get? Is it possible to get in the dean's list?
2) Who are the teachers to look out for?
3) What do you mean, pay the least amount of tuition? We can do that?
and
4) When does classes start?
Thanks!

thank you tripleaxel! you're such a tremendous help. god bless you.
well, i wish everyone good luck. kaya natin yan!

hey there! i just passed by UP this afternoon, the "qualified to enroll" list is out already. they got 167 students.

i think i would most probably end up in UP, although i would like to go to ateneo, sanay na yata. somehow, my parents are convinced that UP is still the better law school.

anyway, goodluck to everyone! and thanks to tripleaxel for all the info.

hi shadowhunter! i'll try to answer some of your q's:

1) whats the highest QPI that one can get?
100? kasi dito, hindi katulad sa UP na point system (1.0, 1.25, etc.)

Is it possible to get in the dean's list?
oo, depende sa abilities mo, prayers, and most important... luck! pero, advice ko, try to survive muna before aiming for the dean's list...

2) Who are the teachers to look out for?
hehehe! no comment. hmmm, safe answer na siguro yung "intro to law teacher" =)

3) What do you mean, pay the least amount of tuition? We can do that?
installment basis! di naman lahat ng nag-aaral sa ateneo mayaman. ako nga, 4 installments ang bayad ko per sem. kaso, mas mahal pa rin compared to UP.

[/QUOTE]

hey stardust, congrats then!

i didnt pass in UP. it's not that I would go there if I pass but well, i just think it was a real subjective and lousy process of selection. the interview process i mean, they were mean to me. but in any case, since my first choice was Ateneo anyway, so I guess I'm just happy that I don't have to choose anymore since my parents prefer UP.

and a lot of miracles happening just to let me study in Ateneo. what can I ask for?

by the way, just one question, is there any teacher from the College that we would encounter during the first sem in law school? (Fr. David, Dr. Dy, etc?)

Thanks!

Shadowhunter, UP is usually "mean" to those who took their undergrad from Ateneo. They were mean to me too, but then again, I haven't heard many stories of those who got their undergrad from UP, so I can't really say they're meaner to Ateneans.

You will meet Fr. David in 2nd year 1st sem. Doc Manny teaches in the business school. Si Doktora Angeles rin yata is in the business school.

See you in Orsem! Be sure to go!

great! si fr. david teaches there? galing nya! anyway, my guy friend who's going to ateneo law is asking how are the frats there?

thanks for the info tripleaxel!

i hope to see you during the orsem!

well, it's final...i am going to UP.

...found out some things out though, in UP, they also finish the course in 4 years (including the review), the reason why ateneo has more units per sem is that they require some subjects that are only electives in UP.

luckily, i met some ateneans already...hope coping up will be easier.

hi stardust! Good luck in UP! Share tips with us here in Atenista.Net!

I think we'll have the same set of teachers in some subjects.

To those who will go to Ateneo, see you in the ORsEm. What are your sections?

HELP.
I would be taking the UPLaw Exams this yr. and the Ateneo Law Exams next year. What are the questions usually in the UP test ba.
Sa Ateneo naman my friends said that mahirap daw yung test II( yung assumption, conclusion, inference and conclusion) yung bago nagbreak ang test for recess. Sobrang haba daw e bitin naman ang oras kaya di mo talaga matatapos. How can you remedy that TEST II? Is there a good reviewer or a booklet for this test?
THANKS!!! :confused:

thanks tripleaxel! (btw, i think my friend knows you, batch 98 ka ba sa college?)

anyway, for jackdawson, i quote my friend who said, "entrance exams are not meant to be finished..." (i did finish the college entrance exams though...). i guess it was pretty tough and i don't think reviewers will be of help. at best, siguro, is for you to improve your reading comprehension skills and vocabulary, and maybe logic.

good luck! balitaan nyo ko how life might have been for me had i gone to ateneo...ciao!

What are the questions usually in the UP test ba.

Algebra, reading comprehension, vocab, lots of logic, abstract reasoning. Parang college entrance test but much more difficult.

Sa Ateneo naman my friends said that mahirap daw yung test II( yung assumption, conclusion, inference and conclusion) yung bago nagbreak ang test for recess.

Yes, mahirap. Don't take too much time for each question because it's quite long. Maybe taking Logic in college would help. But I didn't take Logic and I still made it.


Sobrang haba daw e bitin naman ang oras kaya di mo talaga matatapos.

Not true, I finished it.

Is there a good reviewer or a booklet for this test?

Try the LSAT and GMAT reviewer. For UP, ask around for the reviewer of the Alpha Phi Beta Frat, which was quite helpful. Also, the student council raw comes up with a review class a week before the UP LAE.

Stardust, I'm Ateneo LM 2000. Are you from ADMU also?

tripleaxel,

im incoming freshman in section A. were u at the orsem?

Do you also remember the essay questions that were asked of you in UP LAE?
By the way do they really follow that you
must have finished a 3 units of Rizal course?
Can I just take that after (if) I pass the UP
LAE?
Thank you very much GUYS!!!

Originally posted by jackdawson:

Do you also remember the essay questions that were asked of you in UP LAE?

if i remember it right, it was about human rights situation in the philippines.

By the way do they really follow that you
must have finished a 3 units of Rizal course?

they will check your undergrad courses and see if you have all the subjects required. some courses can substitute for others. (like in ateneo, my friend told me that her SA 21 (i think) gave credit for the 3 unit english course that she was lacking)

Can I just take that after (if) I pass the UP LAE?

YUP!!!

Thank you very much GUYS!!!

you're welcome!!!

Greetings. Part of the goals of the Ateneo Law Student Council thois year is to provide more info regarding ATENEO LAW to interested applicants, particulary, those from Loyola.

Feel free to visit our website at www.atenista.net/law (although the current site is unupdated; watch out next week) or inquire through email.

With regard to your question, as to which school is better, Ateneo has the highest bar passing percentage in the Philippines for several years now, while UP is not even 2nd in rank.

Ofcourse, this may not be your only basis so feel free to ask us specific questions which we hope we can answer.

i thought san beda still has the highest passing rate? oh well, the school can only do so much, in the end it's still upto you.

out of curiosity lang, how many took the bar exam last year and how many passed/failed. honest info ah!

ATENEO has retained the over-all highest passing average. 3 years ago, I think San Beda got the highest for that year alone (thats because they dont allow all graduates to take the bar, only those who they think can pass; they have an exam for that). but for the years before that and after until now, Ateneo has the highest passing rate.

I know that this is an Atenista site, but isn't UP generally regarded as the premier law school in the Philippines?

I don't think that passing percentages should be the basis for determing the quality of a law school. The bar exam is quite mermorization-friendly. The quality of graduates in actual practice would be a better determining factor. The list of esteemed UP alumni is incomparable to Ateneo's or Beda's alumni.

Besides, the screening process alone in UP guarantees that only the best students are accepted. If you didn't pass the LAE, there's no way you could enter Malcolm Hall. I have a friend who did not pass the Ateneo exam, she had her results reconsidered and she's now in first year law! A lot of my friends who didn't make it to UP settled for Rockwell.

isn't UP generally regarded as the premier law school in the Philippines?

it really depends on who you talk to!


The bar exam is quite mermorization-friendly.

Really? If this is so, then it must be simple matter to pass the bar. Evidently, graduates of UP law do not find it as easy to pass the bar. An average of 64% of UP graduates who take the bar pass, compared to an average of 86% of Ateneo graduates and 79% of San Beda graduates. (average for the past 10 years)

The quality of graduates in actual practice would be a better determining factor. The list of esteemed UP alumni is incomparable to Ateneo's or Beda's alumni.

Okay, I agree. But the problem with this is, Ateneo and San Beda are quite young compared to UP, so you don't really have a large enough pool of graduates from all three universities to compare.

Besides, the screening process alone in UP guarantees that only the best students are accepted.

I think that the proper gauge of the better, as you pointed out, is the products of the law schools.


Actually, if I didn't get the chance to compare the curriculums and environment of both schools, I would definitely have went to UP. UP boasts an alumni comprising legal lumninaries, the application process is so tough that it's really a privilege to be able to get in, and the tuition fee is so cheap. However, I saw the curriculum in Ateneo and it demands (from the student) so much more than the one in UP (and gives a lot more to the student as well) and the whole atmosphere is geared towards academic excellence and magis.

However, I think we go to the law school that suits us, because the only proper way to tell if Ateneo or UP is better, would be to go through law school twice, in both schools.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: 8210 ]

UP graduates are not trained to memorize, they're trained to analyze. That's the main reason why UP has a lower passing percentage than Ateneo or Beda.

Also, a friend of mine who dropped out of UP went to Ateneo law two years later. She was the one who noted the main difference between the two schools. UP uses the Socratic method in the true sense of the phrase, Ateneo has tried to adopt this daw but the emphasis on analysis is lesser. Sa pag recite pa lang ng cases, you could already note the difference.

If you want to gauge it by the products of both schools, even if we take the more recent graduates, UP lawyers still stand out. Maganda kasi yung practicum program in UP where the law students actually get to appear in court through the Office of Legal Aid.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Chartreuse ]

chartreuse, you've stated the general biases and connotation on both Ateneo and UP law.

Assuming that only UP profs know how to teach, there are UP professors who teach in ADMU (Azucena, Balane, Disini, Bautista, Vinluan, Quimbo, Robles, De Castro). So how can it be that UP has a monopoly on the "right way" of conducting recitation through Socratic method? Since they also teach here, isn't it that they would bring their focus on analysis (if indeed there is no such focus as of now in Ateneo)?

Also, the practice of law is not limited to appearing in court and arguing cases. The practice of law includes so many things, that assuming that the Practice Law of UP in OLA is really outstanding, all that prepares graduates to do is to do court related work. There's also project finance, estate planning, counselling, and so many other things.

I think to know for sure, you yourself will have to go to Ateneo to experience class. Otherwise, you will be arguing based on hearsay and biases.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: 8210 ]

I really think it boils down to the individual. A slacker at the University of the Philippines College of Law will obviously find it a challenge to compete against Ateneo's diligent valedictorian, and vice versa. In other words, being a UP grad does not necessarily make you a good lawyer. It is the effort and dedication you put in that will make a difference.

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: the Boss ]

It is quite interesting to hear the debate going on regarding which is a better school - UP or Ateneo. Of course this question has been there for many decades now ever since the Ateneo set up a law school at the quonsette huts in P. Faura right after the close of the WWII in the Pacific.

For you young and ambitious "would be" [or should I say "soon" to be] members of the Philippine Bar, may I share this small episode with all of you. I am a member of the Bar in three jurisdiction - Philippines, New York [US Federal and State] and Ontario [the only Atenean so far].

When I applied for admission to the NY State Bar, there was a fellow from San Beda - a Bar Top notcher - # 3 Philippine Bar who applied together with me.

My application was allowed but the other was denied. And so the fellow was angry and furious. He protested and shook the heavens for an explanation.

After a while, the head of the Character Committee of the New York Court of Appeals, sent the San Beda fellow the following explanation.

In the late '70s and early '80s, the American Bar Association [representing all the State and Federal Bars in the United States] sent a team of lawyers and members of the different law schools and universities in the US to the Philippines. Their mission was to assess all the law schools in the Philippines. After their assessments, the committee reported as follows: only two law schools were duly accredited as equivalent to an acceptable ivy league law school in the US - UP and Ateneo. no other law school in the Philippines passed the accreditation. Further more, the report continued that UP has been accredited only because it was a state university. Ateneo was accredited because it was the only law school that came closes to NYU Law School, Cornell U., Fordham U., Harvard, Yale, Penn U., Princeton, Mich U. and other equally reputable US law school in terms of faculty, curriculum, facilities, bar admissions and practice.

It was based on these that for a while any Philippine lawyer who is an Ateneo law graduate with all the other prescribed qualifications, can be and has been admitted to any of the four departments of the NY Court of Appeals (NY Supreme Court) and become a NY Lawyer - exempted from having to take the the NY State Bar exams [one of the toughest if not the toughest bar exams in the entire 50 states] and with automatic admissions to the Washington D.C. State Bar and the Texas State Bar!!!!

The admittant is also entitled to be admitted in Japan as a Foreign Licensed Legal Consultant.

So guys, let's stop debating which is the better school - just remember that you have set foot at one of the honoured portals of law schools in that part of the world.

And by the way, if you have guts, and let me stress "guts" join the honourable gathering of men - the Aquila Legis. It will propel you to heights you have never even imagined. [Asked Dean DonDon Del Castillo - he will tell you an a never ending stories about this!]

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: ixthys ]

you know what i think? those american lawyers are just as ignorant and biased as PEX and atenista.net forumers. obviously, they went to the US embassy, they went around makati, talked to residents in forbes and bel-air, maybe paid a courtesy call to the supreme court. and from there, they made their conclusions.

I heard this story about a U.P. lawyer who, during a meeting, tried to drink Starbucks coffee through the red plastic stirrer, thinking it was a straw.

my friend mac_bolan00:

i have read your comments regarding the members of the ABA who came to the Philippines to do their accreditation of the different law schools throughtout the Philippines.

i am afraid that they have done more than what you surmized. these fellows went as far as Cagayan in the North and as far down as Zamboanga in the South. their report can be found in the Character Committee of the New York Court of Appeals. [The highest court of the State of New York is not the New York Supreme Court but for your information - the New York Court of Appeals.]

i am afraid too, that you have failed to comprehend the important task that these educators have undertaken let alone embarked. this was not simply a "junket" that you and i are quite familiar with - even more so in the Philippine setting.

but perhaps your rashness is execusable in that one whose total exposure is only in the Philippine setting, will logically apply only Philippine experience.

i wonder if your statement will hold true if you have had New York exposure. and this is not to be demeaning, but i suspect, you have taken your undergraduate courses at another school other than at Loyola. i say this because your remark is quite plebian and remarkably hoipoloi.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: ixthys ]

excellent! who said i don't accept corrections. in that case, i take back what i said.

consider though, that i have seen/read other foreign institutions make conclusions that are far beyond the substance of the original acquired data. though i've never been to new york, i would imagine human minds to act with similar conditioned responses.

ps. i'm not from the ateneo but from a nearby school well-known for illustrious plebeians and those from the hoi-poloi. regards.

hey guys! HOW ABOUT SAN BEDA COLLEGE for taking up law?..can someone give me the necessary info?
tnx! :eek:

haven't you ben following the exchanges? san beda may be fine for the philippine setting but someone has already given a convincing argument that only UP and ateneo are of international caliber.

Ixthys:

This is interesting. How can we access this report? Can it be found using Lexis-Nexis or Westlaw? Do you have citations? Out of curiosity, I'll try to look it up myself, but since you've read it, it would help a lot if you share with us the citation, if any. Most Ateneans, including myself, are not aware of this report.

Cheers!

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: the Boss ]

the Boss:

Padre - the best way to get a copy of this report is either to write to the American Bar Association and request from them a copy of the report or write the Character Committee of the New York Court of Appeals. You can access both from the web site.

I hope my leads are helpful.

regards

Thanks for the lead. I actually sent the ABA section an email already shortly after I left my previous message and after my attempt to find such report using Lexis proved futile. Hope they respond soon. Thanks again.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: the Boss ]

Ixthys:

Padre, the American Bar Association responded in the negative. They're not aware of any such report. Are you sure it was the ABA? I'd really like to get hold of a copy of this report. I'm sure other Ateneans would find it very interesting.

the Boss:

I apologized for causing you some concern about this. All I can tell you was that sometime in 1985, I was shown an excerpt of the report from the Character Committee of the New York Court of Appeals. This report made mention of the ABA assessment report of the law school in the Philippines conducted between the late 1970 and early 1980s.

Your other lead would be to write or e-mail the Character Committee of the New York Court of Appeals. If my memory serves me right, you can address your inquiry to Mr. Morris of the Character Committee.

I hope this lead can help. You might also try Metro Legal Services Inc. New York, NY. Ask for Mr. Mario Bejasa. He might be able to give you some leads to the matter.

Regards and good hunting!!!

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: ixthys ]

If it says here that both Law Schools (UP & Ateneo) were accredited because they have what is equivalent to an ivy league law school in the US, why take this statement back by saying: "because UP is a public school." It doesn't really make sense. If that was their reason, why didn't they accredit the MSU, SLU and other state run Law schools in the Philippines?

QUOTE

Several schools above are not Ivy League member schools. Only Cornell, Harvard, Yale, U Penn and Princeton are members of the Ivy league. Princeton on the other hand does not offer Law. How come it is included in the list of schools to benchmark for what could be an excellent law school?

Many UP Law grads take further studies in Harvard, Yale and Michigan. None of them can confirm of your pronouncement.

Btw, Fordham is not and was never considered a top ranked Law school in the US nor in the state of new york.

If you want us to believe your declaration that .... then show us that report. otherwise, keep your mouth shut!

Btw, the UP Law has an average yield of 99%. There were years that the yield has reach 100%. Meaning, almost all if not all UP Law passers rather enroll in UP and not in other Law School. What's the relevance of this? You think that yourself!