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radonc
Well, now that it's moot, I guess we all wait and see. I hope I won't be an "I told you so in the next few months". ph34r.gif
unholybeauty
QUOTE(radonc @ Apr 14 2005, 02:12 PM)
Well, now that it's moot, I guess we all wait and see. I hope I won't be an "I told you so in the next few months". ph34r.gif

i hope not. the government must continue to intensify its drive against tax evaders and corrupt officials and employees as well as focus on its other fiscal reform measures.
radonc
QUOTE(unholybeauty @ Apr 14 2005, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE(radonc @ Apr 14 2005, 02:12 PM)
Well, now that it's moot, I guess we all wait and see. I hope I won't be an "I told you so in the next few months". ph34r.gif

i hope not. the government must continue to intensify its drive against tax evaders and corrupt officials and employees as well as focus on its other fiscal reform measures.

Not just that. It should show us that the taxes we pay actually go where they were meant to go dry.gif
MaroonScorpion
We need the passage of the VAT bill so that investors will have confidence that the government is implementing measures to curb our budget deficit.

Right now there are just question marks about the pending tax bill that need to be answered before the market can move forward. The passage of the VAT bill should breathe life into stocks and prompt a broad based rally, as concerns on the fiscal deficit should ease.

The deadlock at the bicameral conference committee of the senate and congress over VAT is costing the government between P167 million and P222 million a day.
unholybeauty
QUOTE(radonc @ Apr 14 2005, 05:46 PM)
Not just that. It should show us that the taxes we pay actually go where they were meant to go dry.gif

i agree.

QUOTE(MaroonScorpion)
The deadlock at the bicameral conference committee of the senate and congress over VAT is costing the government between P167 million and P222 million a day.

Congress should not be passing the buck to the president. they should be the ones deciding on whether or not to implement the 12% VAT rate.
blue_girl
QUOTE(unholybeauty @ May 13 2005, 06:07 PM)
Congress should not be passing the buck to the president. they should be the ones deciding on whether or not to implement the 12% VAT rate.

some of the possible reasons why they want to pass the buck to GMA are the following:
1. if things go wrong, they could always blame GMA, di pa man din eh naghuhugas kamay na
2. si GMA naman talaga ang may gusto ng increased VAT, binibigay nila yung power sa kanya para wala nang pasakalye eh ma-approve na agad. di na dadaan sa opposition and questions at kung anu ano pang pasikot sikot. malamang alam nilang matatagalan na naman kung congress ang mag decide dahil split din naman ang congress between administration and opposition. if they grant GMA the power to approve the bill di tapos na ang usapan.

btw, i am still firm in my resolve na hindi increased VAT ang solusyon sa problema natin. dry.gif
iceman
radonc,

i know and understand your vehement opposition . but since you are a doctor by trade, there some economic intricacies you may not fully grasp. its a hell to pay the budget deficit is not addressed NOW. just listen to majority of our economists. dont tell me you would know better about philippine economy than them.

i understand your concerns on corruption, collection and other issues. those have to be pursued aggressively too. we have to change the way we do things. it takes decades to change this. but there is one glaring fact, we have to increase revenues NOW. not 3 yrs from now. coz as everybody knows, if we dilly dally, u might have to carry a sack of peso bills to buy a kilo of rice. it is that bad. dont blame arroyo. the ill effects is an accumulation of blatant abuse for decades. u all know who was that guy was. ppl who followed didnt do enough or simply perpetuated the "corruption as usual" motto.

listen to the economists.urgent and radical changes in society are needed , the system of govt. collect taxes.cut bureaucracy and red tape. increase ombudsman budget. hundreds of things to do. but the glaring fact is we have to increase collections NOW. there's really no choice on this. listen to cong. Salceda. he knows what he's talking about. prof winnie monsod and everybody else. theyre really not kidding. the "argentina experience" might be too hard a pill to swallow if govt is unable to increase revenues n the next 5 yrs.
iceman
senators really have no b@lls . majority of them know the URGENT need to increase VAT. but sadly, many of them are running for a 2nd term.

a really credible person regarding this issue is Prof. Milwida Guevarra. under her watch, the philippines posted budget surpluses for a couple of yrs. sadly a bemoustached president took over govt and threw any chance to turn the tide.

blue girl,

its not the only thing we need to do. thousands of things to change and reform pa. but this is an absolute need for the next 3-5 yrs. it is only a temporary panacea. the bill has been passed. it gives us a breathing room for a few yrs. but the bigger job of reforming society is at hand. let us work for a better philippines.if not in this generation, then the next. there is always hope...
Stinger
It was debated ardously on the senate floor and was convincingly defended that we could have survived without a VAT increase. I don't blame the senators stand since I voted for them to protect my interets - lower tax rates. I'd rather have a senator who considers our plight as a filipino people than just a yes senator who agrees to whatever malacañang pushes for.

Now if it was proven indeed that an increase is necessary i would painfully accept and support it. I still am for the senate's original version was. Retain VAT rate, lifting of exemptions, increase of corporate tax...
radonc
Thank you for your input on the matter, Iceman, but I think you miss my point entirely. I was presenting my arguments and objections not as someone who is knowledgable in the field of economics, but as a tax-paying citizen. My knowledge of the budget deficit goes only as far as my Eco 101 class tells me and the last time I attended one was eons ago. However, I DO see that the taxes I pay go nowhere and that in all probablity, the revenue collected from this VAT increase (which will be shouldered by my patients, mind you - yes sir, I know that the VAT is a pass-on tax) would go to the same places my income tax goes to - mostly to the pockets of certain seedy characters posing as public servants...
Blue Ronin
QUOTE(iceman @ May 28 2005, 04:28 PM)
radonc,

i know and understand your vehement opposition . but since you are a doctor by trade, there some economic intricacies you may not fully grasp. its a hell to pay the budget deficit is not addressed NOW. just listen to majority of our economists. dont tell me you would know better about philippine economy than them.

i understand your concerns on corruption, collection and other issues. those have to be pursued aggressively too. we have to change the way we do things. it takes decades to change this. but there is one glaring fact, we have to increase revenues NOW. not 3 yrs from now. coz as everybody knows, if we dilly dally, u might have to carry a sack of peso bills to buy a kilo of rice. it is that bad. dont blame arroyo. the ill effects is an accumulation of blatant abuse for decades. u all know who was that guy was. ppl who followed didnt do enough or simply perpetuated the "corruption as usual" motto.

listen to the economists.urgent and radical changes in society are needed , the system of govt. collect taxes.cut bureaucracy and red tape. increase ombudsman budget. hundreds of things to do. but the glaring fact is we have to increase collections NOW. there's really no choice on this. listen to cong. Salceda. he knows what he's talking about. prof winnie monsod and everybody else. theyre really not kidding. the "argentina experience" might be too hard a pill to swallow if govt is unable to increase revenues n the next 5 yrs.

I do agree with radonc. The point here is simple: where do our taxes go ? I doubt if the economists would have a satisfactory answer to a potentially political question. The VAT rate increase is not anymore a issue of economics, the way I see it now. It is also a political issue, for it involves not only debt settlements, but also how would the money be used by our government leaders in leading and improving the lives of common Filipinos. In fact, we don't even know where the money from our debts have gone to.

I guess, we all wish to see some transparency and concrete actions done. The government owes that to the citizenry.
radonc
Thank you, Blue_Ronin. In simpler terms: NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION wink.gif
blue_girl
gma signed the vat bill, jeepney fares have been increased, labor unions are asking for wage hikes, gasoline prices continue to increase although kaka rollback lang pala nila lately, parang isang malaking kagaguhan eh. tataasan mo nga sweldo ng ordinaryong mamayang pilipino pero anung kwenta nun kung tataasan mo rin naman ang mga pangangailangan nya? di parang pareho rin lang? what's worse is these increases are killing small-medium scale businesses. paano pa mag p-proliferate ang entrepreneurs kung kelangang maging bilyonaryo ka muna bago ka makapagpatayo ng business mo? hay ewan ko ba... ang labo!
unholybeauty
QUOTE(blue_girl @ May 30 2005, 02:05 PM)
gma signed the vat bill, jeepney fares have been increased, labor unions are asking for wage hikes, gasoline prices continue to increase although kaka rollback lang pala nila lately, parang isang malaking kagaguhan eh. tataasan mo nga sweldo ng ordinaryong mamayang pilipino pero anung kwenta nun kung tataasan mo rin naman ang mga pangangailangan nya? di parang pareho rin lang? what's worse is these increases are killing small-medium scale businesses. paano pa mag p-proliferate ang entrepreneurs kung kelangang maging bilyonaryo ka muna bago ka makapagpatayo ng business mo? hay ewan ko ba... ang labo!

QUOTE
gma signed the vat bill


Stocks rebound on Fitch Ratings outlook
Excerpts:
Stocks reversed its five-day decline yesterday as the market finally digested news that Fitch Ratings revised its outlook on the Philippines’ long-term foreign and local currency ratings to stable from negative, days after President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo enacted the law on a new value-added tax (VAT).
------------------------------------------
"This after the Fitch Ratings Agency upgraded their outlook on the Philippines from negative to stable. The news seemed to soothe investors by confirming what recent reports have been implying about an upgrade. Aside from upgrading its outlook for the country, Fitch Ratings has also affirmed the Philippines’ long-term foreign currency and long-term local currency ratings. Fitch said that the outlook revision reflects the recent passage of significant fiscal policy measures, which should help restore the public finances to a sustainable path over the medium term, assuming they are implemented as planned," he said in his online commentary.

QUOTE
jeepney fares have been increased

old fare rates are still in effect

QUOTE
gasoline prices continue to increase although kaka rollback lang pala nila lately

second rollback na yata...more are expected. that's coz the price of crude in the international market is really going down...hope it eventually stabilizes.

QUOTE
parang isang malaking kagaguhan eh

that's coz you lumped 'em all together biggrin.gif

QUOTE
tataasan mo nga sweldo ng ordinaryong mamayang pilipino pero anung kwenta nun kung tataasan mo rin naman ang mga pangangailangan nya? di parang pareho rin lang? what's worse is these increases are killing small-medium scale businesses. paano pa mag p-proliferate ang entrepreneurs kung kelangang maging bilyonaryo ka muna bago ka makapagpatayo ng business mo? hay ewan ko ba... ang labo!


raising wages is not the ultimate solution...but it's a start.
iceman
bluegirl,

its not that complicated. if u ask one question at a time. dont lump them all together.

radonc,
"Thank you for your input on the matter, Iceman, but I think you miss my point entirely. I was presenting my arguments and objections not as someone who is knowledgable in the field of economics, but as a tax-paying citizen. My knowledge of the budget deficit goes only as far as my Eco 101 class tells me and the last time I attended one was eons ago. However, I DO see that the taxes I pay go nowhere and that in all probablity, the revenue collected from this VAT increase (which will be shouldered by my patients, mind you - yes sir, I know that the VAT is a pass-on tax) would go to the same places my income tax goes to - mostly to the pockets of certain seedy characters posing as public servants... "

as a tax paying citizen , you are 100% right. our taxes have a huge leakage. corruption. maybe a whopping 30-60% (who knows really) of the 65% of our budget (35% is for interest payments).its actually a "bare bones" budget. another very good resource person is dennis arroyo of the phil. inquirer.

in the same way that u are emphasizing a point, i am emphasizing a certain point. increase the taxes now and avoid near certain "argentina like" sickness. its really like a business. if a corporation has more debts than revenues (taxes collected), the company would go belly up. it will result in chaos. in fact, if u read carefully, my position, i was pursuing the point to increase taxes now and after that is done, IMPLEMENT those things you have been mentioning. its a quid pro quo situation. if taxes are not increased, we would have mickey mouse money and thus, any anti corruption moves would be for naught coz our Peso would be considered paper money anyway. i will repeat, i agree w/ almost ALL your arguments. however we dont have a choice here really. trust me. as i said, the hard part of fighting corruption should be our next step. its systemic and cultural, w/c means the fight will take very very long before it can make a dent. we need a leader like mahathir mohammad or thaksin or a lee kuan yew (as an extreme). radical changes have to be made. an uncompromising person in the journey for good governance, truth and social justice. its very hard but it can be done...
iceman
koreans, thais, malaysians, succeed because they have a sense of nationhood. when the need arises, its citizens rise to the situation. thais, and koreans donated their own personal jewelry to beef up the gold reserves of their central bank. they have a more "asian" culture. the phils on the other hand , have a more "latino" culture. look at all the south american countries. they arent going anywhere. it seems majority of politicians is in it for himself. good ppl (true public servants) cannot enter govt because of how rotten it is to get elected. the voters(cannon fodder) and cattle herded by politicians w/ their money.

i also emphasize, that the vat increase is not the only way for us to succeed. it is only a necessary evil to arrest our near certain freefall into chaos. our debt problems now started way back in the marcos yrs. now it seems our debt is coming back to haunt us.it was a big blunder for cory aquino to honor the huge behest loans granted to the marcos administration. poland got debt relief.

the most urgent things for us is to:
1. pass a new constitution. the old one simply wont work. it has too many bottlenecks, too anti bness, too quixotic. it was a knee jerk reaction to martial law. a preferable system would be a parliamentary system patterned after malaysia.
2. electoral reform.-computerize and subsidize political parties.so that ppl like grace padaca and true public servants can win against warlords.
3. increase govt salaries to competitive levels and cut the huge govt beaurucracy. computerize operations.
4. ideally, it should only be taxpayers who should vote. the uneducated are being used or swayed by gimmicks of politicians.of course, the masa wont agree to this.but this is for their own good.
5. to increase ombudsman budget by 10 times. make it the most feared govt agency manned by fearless ppl. pay them the best salaries. the ombudsman is the key.


there are hundreds more but those are the most urgent i think.

the politicians dont realize that it is the "last two minutes" for them. they have to show change or else rightists or leftists are waiting in the wings. they arent any better either.
blue_girl
they aren't questions. they are all happening at the same time aren't they? that's why i raised those issues kasi sabay sabay sila nangyayari. on the matter of jeepney fares, on hold nga daw kasi nagka rollback ang gas.

my point is that talaga nga kayang solusyon itong mga pinaggagagawa ng gov't ngayon? parang kasi taxpayers are shouldering the impacts of the huge amount of debts that we have. debts na parang hindi mo naman nakita san ginastos ung pera. sana nga totoo that this VAT bill will help our economy.
iceman
it wont help any if "massive reforms " arent done. the civil society has to rise to the occasion to demand better service from govt. NGOs, church, masa, professionals, bnessmen, etc... it should be the cross section of society. but the VAT will sadly only buy us more time.and that is basically the gist of my point. but it wont cure the cancer. it will only bandage the broken but and temporarily halt the gangrene from enveloping the entire body.

sabay x2 yan lahat dahil yung dam ng tubig napuno na talaga and no amount of holding the dam by govt (subsidy) could no longer take nor afford. the truth is, our power rates, water, etc have been subsidized for so long. a huge part of this debt was the bataan nuclear plant. it spent billions of dollars for not even lighting a single lightbulb. it may be the single biggest white elephant in govt history. i believe we are still paying millions everyday for that single loan alone.and napocor charges that in our monthly electric bills.

the problem was it took so long for govt to bite the bullet until events have overtaken its situation where it really had NO CHOICE. it wasnt run on mkt rates thus, govt shouldered everything using DEBTS. the debts increased to unmaneageable levels due to popular pressure. the gasoline effects are dictated by entirely mkt forces. although, we cannot deny there is a cartel in place. but the govt used persuasion for them to bring it down.

juan dela cruz will definitely bear the brunt. that's why if we complain about high taxes, majority should choose the right leaders to use our taxes wisely. the problem is , the good guys most of the time lose in phil. politics. is change in sight? i sure hope so. the phils. is still a young democracy. the fitch rating upgrade is huge. it will save govt millions of $ in savings from interest costs alone. figures show that the economy was able to survive a high inflation. the phil economy is very resilient.
iceman
6. reform of judiciary. more pay, more judges, faster resolving rate. justice delayed is delaying our progress and order. it should be a bastion for justice for the ordinary filipino to enforce the rule of law.
7. for the people to take a more proactive role in how things are done in govt. eg..boy scouts, church people "sit in" bidding processes. we cant expect govt to change if the ppl dont demand and makes sure THERE IS urgent change.
radonc
Was there really no choice but to increase the rate and widen the coverage of the VAT? Case in point. I distinctly remember that months prior to the previous election, the government, through its mouthpiece, Toting Bunye, kept insisting that our econcomy was "fundamentally sound" without painting this doomsday scenario that it was like Argentina. Now, barely a year into her so-called "fresh mandate", the economy made a 180-degree turn? Baloney! They were either pulling our leg then or bull$#!++!ng us now. Either case, they have already lost credibility, regardless of when they were telling the truth...
iceman
I dont think there was any choice. really. we are in that a bad situation if u look at figures.

that was all BS. it was a strategy to win the election first. of course if gma didnt win, we wouldve been w/ FPJ, which is much much worse off. there is indeed some deception to a certain point. who would admit that the fundamental figures are bad on election day? in fairness, GMA didnt create this hole we are in. it took 5 decades of abuse, and corruption. but we werent being offered good and winnable candidates anyway at that time.

i can see why the exodus is more pronounced now more than ever. but if everybody will leave, who will be left behind to set things right?
radonc
So the end justifies the means then? Machiavelli was correct?

Government is based on people entrusting their country and lives in their leaders. If the premise of electing the people to run this country was based on lies and deception, what moral ascendancy do they have to tell us to "tighten our belts" when we see them abusing the authority that is theirs only on loan from us?
dennis
VAT is this administration's answer to cover up for their spending spree prior to May 10, 2004. What they want, they get. Like their pet witness LCS, who now is into all kinds of business.

VAT is the answer to their own creation - the fiscal crisis.

Amen.
iceman
to a certain extent that is true. the nature of politics is never in absolutes. sometimes you have to be pragmatic to be able get to get things done. specially in this rotten system. mind you, these things happen even in the most highly industrialized nations. there is a balance though. dito minsan, sobrang garapalan lang talaga. sobrang kapalmuks ng mga buwaya natin. walang mga consensya kahit yumaman na.

i do hope good parties would rise from the skunk we have now. civil society people who are willing to organize and not to let the politicians run this country down. the problem is, the good people once in govt, get swallowed by the system. i hope parties like liberal party make a stronger showing. they do have a respectable amount of good politicians. but of course , civil society and well meaning parties could make an impact once the campaign finance law could be passed . i believe the decent ppl of this country wont let this nation go to the dogs.

8. population control. a unified population control program. china is able to maintain a minimum wage of around P150 . why? its one child policy. families are able to sustain a family of three. ours is P250 however, it usually supports a family of 6-8. that's why filipinos are worse off despite very high wages. we are the 2nd highest in southeast asia. our labor isnt competitive. our productivity in relation to our neighbors is low. we have to be competitive yet , be able to support our laborers. the govt should make the P250 count. it should try to find ways to bring down the cost of rice. just import rice. we can import at half the price from thailand , vietnam.food costs will go down.improve roads for farm to mkt roads to bring down the costs of other food items. RORO also. bring down the monopolistic port charges.
Blue Ronin
QUOTE(iceman @ May 31 2005, 11:33 AM)
it wont help any if "massive reforms " arent done. the civil society has to rise to the occasion to demand better service from govt. NGOs, church, masa, professionals, bnessmen, etc... it should be the cross section of society. but the VAT will sadly only buy us more time.and that is basically the gist of my point. but it wont cure the cancer. it will only bandage the broken but and temporarily halt the gangrene from enveloping the entire body.

sabay x2 yan lahat dahil yung dam ng tubig napuno na talaga and no amount of holding the dam by govt (subsidy) could no longer take nor afford. the truth is, our power rates, water, etc have been subsidized for so long. a huge part of this debt was the bataan nuclear plant. it spent billions of dollars for not even lighting a single lightbulb. it may be the single biggest white elephant in govt history. i believe we are still paying millions everyday for that single loan alone.and napocor charges that in our monthly electric bills.

the problem was it took so long for govt to bite the bullet until events have overtaken its situation where it really had NO CHOICE. it wasnt run on mkt rates thus, govt shouldered everything using DEBTS. the debts increased to unmaneageable levels due to popular pressure. the gasoline effects are dictated by entirely mkt forces. although, we cannot deny there is a cartel in place. but the govt used persuasion for them to bring it down.

juan dela cruz will definitely bear the brunt. that's why if we complain about high taxes, majority should choose the right leaders to use our taxes wisely. the problem is , the good guys most of the time lose in phil. politics. is change in sight? i sure hope so. the phils. is still a young democracy. the fitch rating upgrade is huge. it will save govt millions of $ in savings from interest costs alone. figures show that the economy was able to survive a high inflation. the phil economy is very resilient.

Sadly, VAT is not the lesser evil in this case. The common Filipino has been thirsting for some improvements in the way the government is handling things. The way I see it, even if the govt comes out proclaiming that we have achieved an enormous increase in our GNP, saying the stock market trading volume shot up, or announcing that the fiscal crisis is over, it has lost its credibility with people.

You see those figures translated to conflicting images of abject poverty (the rows of shanties; people who would sell their body parts e.g. kidneys, teeth, eyes for money), of corruption (SSS, AFP, Jueteng scandals); of unemployement. Where has the progress gone ? Where has governance gone ?

It seems that events have indeed overtaken us.

Hence the palpable reluctance of the populace to have the VAT. If the govt would impose VAT, the impression that Filipinos would get would be as conflicting as what has been presented by the govt. Would it be really used for the purpose it was originally intended for ? Filipinos all wonder. Sadly, VAT is the necessary evil.
radonc
The VAT, like majority of the ningas-kogon projects of government, is part of the "band-aid" mentality of the present lot clowns running the country. There seems to be a societal myopia afflicting majority of policy-makers. To quote Mary Poppins, the leadership can't "see beyond his own nose"...
elke_weis
the admin's economic team decided the VAT hike is the best method that can be adopted right now. why'd you call it 'nigas cogon'? why'd you even decide that most things filipino are 'ningas cogon'?
radonc
QUOTE(elke_weis @ Jun 1 2005, 07:22 PM)
the admin's economic team decided the VAT hike is the best method that can be adopted right now. why'd you call it 'nigas cogon'? why'd you even decide that most things filipino are 'ningas cogon'?

I don't recall anything in my post that most things Filipino is ningas cogon. It's the projects of government that mostly are. Have a look at the way things are run when there is a change of leadership in a department (never mind national leadership) - always abandoning old (but working) projects to start from scratch other projects just because the former is not their "brainchild". Think DepEd transition from Raul Roco.

The previous post merely casts doubt on the presence of common sense and long term planning ability (or will) of the present government...
Sashimi Boy
In my opinion, we should just abolish the pork barrel of congress and use the savings for debt payments. That should free up additional funds for government projects. But since I doubt this could happen anytime soon without a bloody revolution, I'd like to see EVAT exemptions for oil and energy.

Masama po ang EVAT kung ma-apply siya sa langis at energiya. Liliit lang ang ekonomiya at mas lalong kakaunti ang makokolekta ng gobyerno.
iceman
radonc,

hi, i dont know if the current state of news proves that i am right. but on a macro side of the equation, the financial markets are up after the supreme court approved the EVAT. the peso is appreciating. next yr, our deficit will get to a manageable level. we may have a balanced budget very soon. the philippines is now the "darling" of the financial markets. this translates right away into almost billions in interest payments saved.

i know that this is hardly enough, but macro-wise there is a bit of good news. some people really have to wade through all the "political noise" to see clearly. sometimes , the political noise contributes to filipinos shooting themselves again on the foot. it is better to just work on our own business and contribute in our little way to national development and create change in small ripples rather than in a big wave w/c can be scary in end result. it took america decades to climb itself out of the rut. hopefully the philippines will see its day in our lifetime.
happy_soul
We can complain 'til kingdom come. But, there's really nothing we can do to stop it. SC had already given it's decision. We can only pray that the government be transparent where will the money go? With all those good objectives that this increase was implemented, it would really be beneficial to the country. This is just one way of looking at it positively. For how many decades now, the country haven't even paid it's foreign debts by half and up to this very moment, we know how small this government have for a national budget. Same old complaints on how little consuelo de bobo Juan dela Cruz gets from his taxes. Maybe soon enough, poor JdC will be getting better services. This might be the cure for the country's weak financial status.
iceman
most of the money will still go to interest payments. but the philippines will get a temporary breather. but GMA and the next in line do really need to take aggressive reforms or else, the phils will turn from bad to worse.

1. corruption problem
2. infrastructure problem and make a good place for business
3. a leaner govt bureaucracy w/ computerized operations. the govt is not a job agency.
4. change into a parliamentary system. the presidential system is a major hindrance for our progress.

it's crunchtime boys. it can be dreadful to think we will approach the "argentina" experience. we can feel it nowadays. crime is going at a stratospheric rise. someone just stole my stereo. anyway, be extra careful folks.
Zengo
A recent report from Businessworld mentioned that we would be in the same boat as Argentina were it not for the money OFWs have been sending home.

Taxes, electricity bills, fuel: its always the people who pay but the political elite just siphon away public funds come what may. mad.gif We should really watch where the money is going, even if senate hearings and newspapers become staid and boring.
iceman
the people should get a better alternative to the current crop of politicians. they are the bane of this country much like toxic chemicals. in a parliamentary setup, true professionals might have a fighting chance to win w/out massive cash outlay. more people like grace padaca and not traditional politicians could take more govt seats.
radonc
QUOTE(iceman @ Dec 8 2005, 08:42 AM) *
the people should get a better alternative to the current crop of politicians. they are the bane of this country much like toxic chemicals. in a parliamentary setup, true professionals might have a fighting chance to win w/out massive cash outlay. more people like grace padaca and not traditional politicians could take more govt seats.

Yes, but without a mature voting population, we still would end up with the same bunch of clowns, hoodlums and hooligans that we see hogging the limelight today. I also think the mindset of patronage politics would carry over no matter what form of government we have for as long as we have trapos dominating the political scene. The very reason why the present government is inutile is because it is beholden to certain interest groups and individuals who helped catapult it to ((?) illigitimate) power.
Cubao Fleahouse
^^ which begs the question "has there been any president who climbed his or her way to the top without the direct support of interest groups?" and the answer is none. politics is essentially the struggle for power, and it is the measure of a great president who can make a difference by balancing the spoils of power to these groups.

we know that we have a very small number of direct taxpayers in proportion to the country's overall population. a big amount of our tax revenues is derived from the automatic deductions of fixed wage income earners like myself. therefore to expand the tax collection base, government has to resort to a number of indirect taxation schemes like the expanded VAT that unfortunately create the effect of burdening further the unemployed and the underemployed sector. it's tough, but until we can address the problem and work toward a more progressive taxation system, i'm afraid we have no choice but to share the brunt of added taxes and be more vigilant where our tax pesos go and the manner by which they are spent.

to make intelligent voting choices, a voter must know where his class interests lie. a voter must be able to make an intelligent choice based on facts and issues. however, what i feel is more important is for all of us to lead virtuous, productive lives that rely as little as possible on government as well as the empty promises of our politicians. if we can learn to block out the politicking in our midst, then we'll be better off.
iceman
i agree w/ both points.

radonc, if we had a parliamentary system,our uneducated voters will not have a chance to elect an FPJ, or erap. and if an ineffective GMA is sitting, she can easily be replaced. there is more pressure to perform well than in a presidential setup. the current setup we have has too many bottlenecks. checks and balances daw, but we move like a slow turtle as a country as a result of this.
Sashimi Boy
I'm for a tax cut! We could compensate with the revenue loss by suspending the pork barrel and the special presidential funds. The tax cut would increase spending and investments so we wind up with more collections in the end. I believe that with a tax cut, net social welfare will increase.

With economic growth, more businesses and individuals will report income or move to the formal, tax-paying sector.

Paul Krugman has recently noted that tax cuts have had a lag effect of improving the US economy ever since they started doing them in the 60s. It's not the Philippine economy but the case may be indicative pending further study.
iceman
a tax cut can be feasible after 2-3 yrs. representing the lowest income sectors. however, tax cuts and other measures are doomed to fail unless unprecedented reforms are taken. we have to shift to a unicameral system. they say it is the people not the system...well, if the people are rotten, they can still make it work w/ a better system. look at malaysia. prime minister mahathir is corrupt. but at least economic progress was able to trickle down because of a stronger leadership.

status quo is clearly not acceptable.

a tax cut though is a bad idea considering that we are in deep deficit. a tax cut can be entertained if our country has budget surpluses for at least 5 yrs.
radonc
I agree with iceman on the tax cut thing. Funny thing, though that after consulting with my accountant, it seems that now that my income is VATable (professional), I would be entitled to more deductions as most everything vatable can be used as deductions.

Ice, yes, the people would not directly elect FPJ or Erap, but would we any better off under say, JdV (who probably has an understatedly fair chance of becoming PM under Parliamentary rules) or Pichay, or Nograles elected by Parliament as compared to say Noli de Castro under a directly elected presidential system? Same crooks, different name. Anyway, I think this line is a bit off topic so I'll end it here...
Sashimi Boy
While I agree with the Iceman that the attitude of people are the real problem, a unicameral system may actually intensify politicking (assuming there are no "firewalls" for the civil service sector-and there are indications that civil servants will still be politicized after charter change). You might have meant federalism, a system with more potential to change society due to political and fiscal devolution.

I also agree that the status quo is clearly unacceptable.

As for the tax cut, a tax cut is feasible IF -as I said- we cut the pork and special presidential funds (P200B+), amounts that are substantially more than the P86B anticipated to be raised with EVAT.
iceman
ah ok. but i think that's impossible. even the US congress has pork barrel.

radonc, i think a JDV presidency might be better than those other popular figures. i dont think he will be as corrupt now because i think he really understands that its time to give philippines good leadership. he understands that the phils will fold if they dont feel a little good in them. it is clearly not in their self interest to let the phils fold. to a certain extent, the guy is brilliant and very pragmatic. i sincerely believe he will perform better than GMA.

VAT is deductable that is why it isnt that bad. tax cuts is not that feasible w/ a small % of our population paying tax. the aim of the VAT now is to widen the coverage of its tax base . there is too much underground economy. w/c is also bad for a country.
Zengo
JDV actually changed since his daughter died in that horrible fire. He's no saint but he delivered in Ramos' time. He's a team player. Corrupt, certainly, but he gives when he takes. He's not disastrously greedy as that Ateneo batch of the Arroyos (yes, that cabal is composed of Ateneans of a certain batch).

The underground economy is large because they can't pay taxes (low income). If you lower taxes they will-all things held equal including patriotism utility-most likely contribute.

Unlike my economics teacher above, I'm amibivalent on the matter [effect of VAT] since poor people are better off not paying taxes. Of course if everybody starts evading taxes, a fallacy of composition is apparent: the whole system crashes.

I have an institutionalistic approach. The whole situation is near equilibrium because of socioeconomic, political and cultural factors. You can't separate the fiscal from the political.

Maybe this whole discussion is pointless. Maybe I'll just pick up chicks... I suddenly have a migraine.
Sashimi Boy
It may interest you gents to know that our politicos actually suspended (what's the word: forewent?) the pork during the FOREX crisis in the 50s and twice before the war.

We could think from inside the box. Or we could expand the box.

Or maybe I'll just join Zengo with his hunting...
iceman
yeah, JDV really delivers. the guy is very good if he wants to be. he's no saint but he gets the job done.

sayang yung mga ateneans who had huge opportunities before them to be heroes but instead, turned out to be trapos and pieces of $***. they could have made a difference.

yep, we cant really separate the fiscal from the politcal. it gives me a headache sometimes thinking about it. but im not the type who gives up.

but in the meantime, il probably just you guys too. hehe.
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